Posted by Sharon Moyer on 8/4/04 8:46am
Msg #5462

E-mail letter from MortgageDocs.com, what do you think

I received this from MortgageDocs.com (SEE BELOW) I think thier way off base. They have not considered that someone has to be there to print the doc's so if you stay at your office and wait for them you are out the time you could be using for other closings or if your out on a closing you have to trek back to your office to download and print the doc's ( which for me could be 30+ miles, were more rural than city) I don't know what some of these ss and title co's are thinking. The cost to us is ever increasing ( gas, paper, toner, office equip. elect. ,heating your office, cell Ph. ect) and they think it boils down to cost of paper and toner, yet they want to keep geting cheaper and cheaper. Well as they say "You get what you pay for" If they keep going in this trend a lot of the good notaries will stop signing for them or get out of the business altogeather. If I wanted to work for Buger King I would at least they give you a fee meal once a day.

[The contents of the Letter to Notaries has been removed by Notary Rotary Staff at the request of MortageDocs.com due to what they have described as proprietary content.]

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 8/4/04 9:03am
Msg #5463

Simply put -- I WON'T be doing signings for MortgageDocs.

Reply by Annoyed and....? on 8/4/04 9:36am
Msg #5470

Roger that!!!!!They went to my "Do not accept List". " Penny Wise and Pound Foolish", as the saying goes. They haven't a clue what takes place at the receiving end. Checklists of docs rec'd. with all info. pertaining to lender, borrower ...etc. etc.;- reviewing the docs. in general-/ dates- signers req'd-- record keeping for Logs- Journals- the host of "What if's" we face as every signing is different- May take half hour to 3 hours at borrowers home- it is all releavent-and auto expenses- wear and tear-,gas, oil & lube jobs- chance of accident the more you use your auto- the more susceptable you become--cell phone- fax line and related costs--" and on and on it goes;;" sounds like they ought be going the other way at "costing"- use a telescope instead of a microscope.. "the hair on my neck is straight up- you should hear my growl."Thankyou for sharing that long letter Carolyn- you have my vote!"

Reply by Anonymous on 8/4/04 10:04am
Msg #5473

AMEN, If they only knew how long you have to wait for e-docs sometimes. If I had a dime for everytime some SS told me the docs will be there in 15 min and they didnt come for 1 hr I would be rich from those dimes.

Reply by CarolynCO on 8/4/04 10:07am
Msg #5474

I can't take credit for the letter -- I was just responding that I won't be doing signings for them.

Reply by Bob-Chicago on 8/4/04 11:01am
Msg #5477

To each his own

If you want to keep examining your primarily fixed costs, (eg: heat, electric, cell phone) with a fine tooth comb and counting each minute that "might" be involved to complete a signming, then do your thing. I would rather keep up my volume with excellent companies like MTGDOCS and make even more money. If you look at the glass as 1/2 full more often than 1/2 empty, then both your glass and your bank account will both be much fuller.
For further comment see my post on the GMN board in respone to "Mortgage Docs - open letter, etc "posted today at 4:31 am.
JMHO, but my HO is based on six years experience and about 9,000 signings

Reply by CarolynCO on 8/4/04 11:45am
Msg #5485

Re: To each his own

You are so right Bob - to each his own. This is not my full-time business. Since 1992 I have been operating my own full-time business and I have learned that it *is* a necessity to examine with a fine tooth comb, as you say, the fixed cost of doing business, and I'm not about to give my time or my services away for either of my businesses.

Reply by CA_Notary on 8/4/04 1:13pm
Msg #5494

Re: To each his own

I mostly agree with Bob. Before I started doing loan signings I was already paying for my cell phone, for a high speed internet connection, for electricity, etc. If I were to stop doing signings tomorrow I'd still have those exact same costs, so I don't factor that stuff specifically into determining my rates (but of course I use them all on my taxes!).

Another argument I saw in this thread - the costs involved if you're at another signing and have to come home to print out the docs. Yes, there are obviously costs involved with that, but they shouldn't be applied to the rate for email docs. If I accept a signing 30 miles away, my rate is going to reflect the cost of travelling to and from that signing. Yes, it's great when I can piggyback appointments and not have to do as much travelling, but I certainly don't reduce my rates when I'm able to do that. So if I end up having to come back home to print out docs before heading to my next appointment, I've already been compensated for that travel time by my signing rate. There is NO additional cost that I should be entitled to.

The argument "that's time I could be spending doing another signing" doesn't apply in this case either. If there was another signing for me to do, you can bet your ass that I've already accepted it, so I'm not losing anything there either.

To me, the key is to view each signing as a seperate entity and charge accordingly. Yes, sometimes things go wrong and it gets hectic and I'm inconvenienced and end up spending more time on it than I otherwise would. But you know, sometimes a signing that I've allotted 1 hour for gets done in 20 minutes. You just never know, and I figure in the long run it all evens out, and my signing services and title companies love me because they know I'm willing to go the extra mile for them without bitching or trying to get an extra 10 bucks for my troubles. And that attitude is allowing me to make a full time living from this job in the heavily saturated LA market.

Having said all THAT, there's no way in hell I would accept $13.50 for email docs from Mortgagedocs.com. My primary concern isn't the other $11.50 that I should be getting, but their attitude that WE should be the ones to eat costs so they can market themselves more effectively. That attitude is dangerous to the signing agent community, and I'm not going to be part of allowing them to foster it. When I see the ridiculous amounts of fees involved in most loans, I do not think it's unreasonable for us notaries to expect to be paid more than "actual costs" with email documents. And if they see that they can get away with doing this, how long will it take for them to start cutting their signing agent fees?

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 8/4/04 4:06pm
Msg #5504

Re: To each his own

CA_Notary spouted in no uncertain terms, "The argument "that's time I could be spending doing another signing" doesn't apply in this case either. If there was another signing for me to do, you can bet your ass that I've already accepted it, so I'm not losing anything there either."

If I already had a signing that would prevent me from doing edocs, I decline the request. However, if I do accept an edoc signing, I am forced to reserve some amount of time to receive and print the docs. This may require travel back to my office to do so. Thus I must charge for the time reserved for that. It is basically the same as not being able to do another signing, at least a portion of that. For that reason, I feel that $50 for edocs is fair compensation for adjusting a schedule to accommodate the printing of the documents. Often, with overnight docs, I can leave at noon and not return to the office until 8 PM or later. If an edoc signing is thrown in the mix, I have to travel back to the office (on average 45 minutes), download, print and package. Sometimes, with malformed documents, printing alone may take an hour. Then travel to the borrowers.

Therefore, I do say that the argument "that's time I could be spending doing another signing" certainly does apply in this case.

Like about "unrealized gain" when planning your business. You cannot rely on the "bird in the hand", as your future is based on the "bird in the bush". (Economics 102)

Reply by CA_Notary on 8/4/04 6:12pm
Msg #5514

Re: To each his own

"However, if I do accept an edoc signing, I am forced to reserve some amount of time to receive and print the docs. This may require travel back to my office to do so. Thus I must charge for the time reserved for that"

I guess we look at things differently then. I don't look at the time it would take me to return and print the docs as extra time. I look at the return travel time as time I've already been compensated for in the cost of the signing that I just completed, as my rates are based on travel from my house to the signing and back home again.

If I have 2 signings in a city that I charge $80 for, I charge the full fee for each signing even if I don't have to make 2 trips. I will try to schedule them back to back to save on travel time and costs. If I can do that, great, I look at it as a bonus. But if I had to travel to one appointment, then go home and print out the docs and travel back to the city for the second appointment I haven't lost anything as I already based my fee on a round trip. Yeah, I'd much rather not have to do this and will try to avoid it if possible, but if I have to, I have to.

I guess it is a half full/half empty perspective. I'm not going to base my fees on a hypothetical situation like you seem to do with e-docs. I make sure I am fairly compensated for each individual signing that I do, but I look at the big picture even more than that - time I may lose on individual signings, time I may gain on individual signings, goodwill, competition in my area, etc. I may "lose" 30 or 45 minutes here and there, but I also "gain" 15 or 30 minutes even more regularly.

Earlier today I had 2 signings, neither in a city that was particularly close to me. My fee was based on the signings taking 1 hour each plus travel time. Well the first signing took about 35 minutes, the second took about 20 minutes. In my head, I now have banked 65 minutes that I've been paid for, but didn't actually have to work for, so I'm not going to be to worried about spending an extra unexpected 30 or 45 minutes on something in the future because in the overall picture I'll still come out ahead.

Actually, that would be an interesting experiment - to keep track of all the time I've gained vs. the time that I lost based on 1 hour per signing. I'd be willing to bet that after 1 month of tracking my "time bank" would have a fairly significant positive balance.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 8/4/04 9:32pm
Msg #5526

Re: To each his own

While typically I do charge a fee that includes round trips, however, as some folks here already know, that if I know I'm in an area near the requested new signing at the right time, I will give a discount on the travel since I won't have to make the trip. That is to say, if I'm already 50 miles away and the next signing is only 10 miles from there, I often reduce my travel expenses for not traveling. Just the way I work.

Reply by Stephanie/CA on 8/6/04 12:16pm
Msg #5612

Re: To each his own - Paul

I just have a feeling you are quite successful in this industry; now I understand why it is so. With the actions that you have mentioned, you become a kind person, which can be rare in this business....so, I say thank you.
You sets you apart from the rest.

Stephanie

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 8/6/04 12:57pm
Msg #5620

Re: To each his own - Paul

<blushing> Why, thank you Stephanie, for those kind and gentle words.

So hire me or marry me.

Reply by HisHughness on 8/6/04 1:14pm
Msg #5624

Re: To each his own - Paul

PAW burbled:

***<blushing> Why, thank you Stephanie, for those kind and gentle words.

So hire me or marry me. ***

Stephanie, don't be bullied. Hold out for a third choice.

Reply by shaz on 8/6/04 3:00pm
Msg #5639

Re: To each his own

Bob
On Go Mobile Notary it was 6 years and 8000+ closings O. K. did you just complete 1000 Signing’s today? I still find this hard to believe 9000 closings divided by 6 years = 1500 signing a year avg. 1500 singing a year times min. $50.00 a signing = 75,000.00 a year. If this is true what you are making MOVE OVER I"M COMING TO LIVE WHERE YOU DO. And just think if you got $100. a signing 150,000. per year.

Reply by Anonymous on 8/6/04 3:46pm
Msg #5643

Re: To each his own

Bob, if you did 9,000 signings in six years, that's going to be almost five closings a day, six days a week, 52 weeks a year. You ever take a vacation?

Reply by shaz on 8/7/04 7:04pm
Msg #5709

Re: To each his own

Vacation!!! Does Bob Sleep???

Reply by Arthur on 8/4/04 11:32am
Msg #5483

I just love how they say it shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to receive and print e-docs!!!

IF ONLY THAT WERE TRUE!!! It must be nice living there in fantasy land. I think I'll move!!!

Reply by EP_VA on 8/4/04 1:02pm
Msg #5492

Seems to me that the signing services are passing the costs on to the notary, especially considering that the signing service is not printing the documents (time, paper & toner), and they seem to want to ignore that part of the services rendered, and yet they want you to be "reasonable" in your fees? And believe me, it takes more than five minutes to print out these documents. And if you don't have a copier, that means printing the documents twice. I have had situations where the signing service didn't receive the documents, and the closing cancelled. Other situations where the borrowers have refused to sign the documents (after you have printed out two sets!). Who absorbs the cost of your time, printing the documents and travel to the home of the borrowers?

I have learned that there is more to being a signing agent than just notarizing documents. Once you receive the loan package, you then have to go over your instructions to find out what they are asking you to do. All loan packages are not the same.

Once the signing is complete, you should go over the documents to make sure that everything is signed and notarized.

Finally, off to FedEx or UPS to get the package out. An entire signing can sometimes take a couple of hours of more, and yet you need to be "reasonable"???

I await any comments. Thanks.

Reply by HisHughness on 8/4/04 6:16pm
Msg #5515

EP_VA VA VOOM! said:

***I have learned that there is more to being a signing agent than just notarizing documents. Once you receive the loan package, you then have to go over your instructions to find out what they are asking you to do. All loan packages are not the same.***

Indeed they are not all the same. Following are the minimum steps I go through for each complete signing:

1. Initial discussion and acceptance of assignment via phone/e-mail
2. Review order upon arrival
3. Insert into computer calendar, traveling calendar
4. Assign a file number in computer tracking program
5. Create file
6. Fill out order information form for file
7. Create map with computer program, place in file
8. Call borrower to confirm appointment, give instructions on ID
9. Go to appointment, execute documents
10. Prepare fax to closing/title company confirming closing and providing invoice; send fax
11. Write letter to title company detailing any problems with the closing, soliciting future business
12. Prepare overnight courier package if one is not provided; get overnight package to courier
13. Fill out order information form in file with tracking number, start/finish time of closing, etc.
14. Note closing completion in tracking program, change from pending order to account receivable
15. File file
16. Record check in when received
17. Deposit check

Of couse, this is for a closing in which everything goes smoothly without a single hitch. That may be one closing out of five. You may be stuck with a closing that cancels, in which case the effort put into steps 1-8 are wasted, uncompensated effort. Or, you may have to place several calls to the the borrower before you finally get him. You may find that your computer map program does not recognize his address. Your printer may run out of ink or paper, and you discover that despite your best planning, you have neither on hand. Your computer may crash, adding another glitch, and so on, ad infinitum.

But wait, there’s more!

The above outline does not include the time spent trying to collect a belated or unpaid fee, the time spent occasionally correcting an oversight, etc.

Reply by CA_Notary on 8/4/04 12:15pm
Msg #5486

Well, they specifically ask for your feedback and to tell them where and if they're wrong. I hope you provide them with your opinions.

Reply by Anonymous on 8/4/04 1:11pm
Msg #5493

Sharon
Would you please email me? I have a question for you specifically regarding this email.
Thanks!
[e-mail address]

Reply by CA_Notary on 8/4/04 1:33pm
Msg #5495

Now that I read this letter again

I realize that it's not even as unreasonable as I initally thought it was. They are not saying they will only pay actual costs for their e-docs, they're only asking their notaries to evaluate their own e-doc fees and to provide the best quote possible.

They've provided what I consider to be fairly reasonable and accurate figures for actual costs. The only thing that they haven't factored in is the cost of time, and as we've seen on this board that can vary WIDELY from notary to notary.

They're not saying "we know this is what it costs, and that's all we're willing to pay". They're saying "we know this is what it costs, what are you willing to accept, because we're going to use that as a factor in hiring notaries". Which I think is fair enough. I use the same factor in deciding which signing services I'm willing to accept work from.

From what I've seen on this board, I actually can't say that I blame them. I've seen people post email doc rates that I consider to be excessively high. If you can get them from other companies, great, but Mortgagedocs.com is telling you that they ain't gonna pay them anymore.

Reply by CarolynCO on 8/4/04 3:07pm
Msg #5501

Re: Now that I read this letter again

I, too, have read some of the excessively high rate for e-docs -- one charge to open them up and print, and another charge for printing/copying borrower copies. Maybe it's from dealing with attorneys for 20+ years, but for my secretarial service charge rates and my SA/e-docs rates, I have pretty much broken every charge down to specifics. My webpage has a pie chart as to what I actually earn an hour in my secretarial service *after* self-employment taxes, etc. My e-docs rate is $35 and will never be $13.50. I came up with the $35 rate from reading posts of what others charge and also from experience with attorneys who charge 25 cents a page for copies. My e-doc fee is based on a 65 page loan package -- some are more and some are less, but it averages out to be 65 plus borrower copy and that is 130 pages multiplied by 25 cents a page and that comes out to $32.50. The 25 cents/page covers my paper, laser toner, copier toner, computer, miscellaneous overhead, and time and I've added the additional $2.50 per signing/e-doc fee for the headache e-docs, which sometimes isn't nearly enough, IMO, but that's my rate.

Reply by HisHughness on 8/4/04 6:26pm
Msg #5517

Re: Now that I read this letter again

CarolynCO elaborated:

***My e-docs rate is $35 and will never be $13.50. I came up with the $35 rate from reading posts of what others charge and also from experience with attorneys who charge 25 cents a page for copies.***

I, too, charge $35 for two sets of copies; $25 for a second loan. Because I really dislike doing e-dox, I only recently began accepting closings in which they were a factor; they seemed to be the wave of the future. Thus far, I haven't had anyone balk.

Reply by Andy_WA on 8/5/04 4:28am
Msg #5536

Re:Business 101...For newbie???

With as little as 12 signing under my belt, I think I've learn enough to know how to run this one man business profitably. I do, like all of us always have to ask how the dox will be delivered when someone calls. Not so that I can quote me fee accordingly, but to better prepare myself for the assignment.

To Hishughness, I think you should un-retired to practicing law. Atleast you will have a secretary to do your step 1-8/10-20 and you won't have to deal with desparate client who would negotiate your "professional" fees.

Unlike title/escrow/lender, MortgageDoc is just like any other SS; a middle man. They are trying to capitalize on our investment instead of the other way around. I will tell any SS that whine or try to negotiate my fee to kiss my b-hind and don't ever bother me again. You can call it print cost or whatever, I simply call it my "handling fee. I am running a business as an independent contractor, I don't work at retail "labor". My aim is to provide direct service to title, escrow, and lender.

MortgageDoc is strategically planning a corporation wanna be with "deep pocket" in mind. There is an old saying "the ambitious pocket has no bottom" (its a translation). If you read the email letter carefully, the jack-ass that wrote it already knew what we are after when dealing with edocs, which is time. Highlight of the letter was mainly penny figures on equipment usage with depreciated value calculated down to dirt. Yet, their expectation is to download and print docs in <5'. Have you done the math? you're damn right! You would need a printer with lightning speed of atleast 40 pg/min.

To succeed in this business by slaving for SS in return for experience is worst then flipping burger. Try anlyzing the simplest Kinko's business methodology, bulk vs single copy.

If that was too simple try this word "panhysterosalpingo-oophorectomy" for the day.

Cheers...Andy

Reply by Bob-Chicago on 8/5/04 10:50am
Msg #5545

Please see my reply on GMN to Post @ 8-5-04 2:55 am

Sorry but I have to leave for some signings and don't have time to write it twice

Reply by DMB on 8/5/04 12:21pm
Msg #5555

What are you a GYN wannabe?!?

Ladies,

Check out this definition

panhysterosalpingo-oophorectomy (pan·hys·ter·o·sal·pin·go-ooph·o·rec·to·my) (pan-his˛t[schwa]r-o-sal˛ping-go-o˛of-[schwa]-rek˘t[schwa]-me) excision of the uterus, cervix, uterine tube, and ovary

Reply by Andy_WA on 8/5/04 1:53pm
Msg #5562

Re: What are you a GYN wannabe?!?

I appologize if its anyway inappropriate for the board. It's one of the hundred vocabs I have to memorize for my med-terminology mid-term exam.

Reply by Gracie on 8/6/04 2:48pm
Msg #5636

Re: What are you a GYN wannabe?!?

See? Context is everything. . .or is it, God is in the context? Something like that. . .