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Posted by BrendaTX on 9/17/04 8:37pm
Msg #8233

Another Encounter With Blanks Left for Filling in Later

I got an order today to go to a doctor's office to notarize an affidavit.

After carefully reading the order I was really amused that it said to tell the affiant to leave the "number of pages" of medical records blank in the affidavit when notarizing it so that the lawyers could fill in the "right" number of pages! If the affidavit was already filled in, I was to contact their office immediately so that a clean copy could be faxed and done correctly.

That was a first!

I would not do it that way, of course, so I called the company back and said that I did not understand how that could be required of a notary to tell the affiant that the page number must be left blank. The number of pages is rather significant since that is what the medical record custodian will be swearing to attaching to the affidavit as a complete transcript of the patient's file.

"Oh-- the client requires that."

"See, they review the records and remove the pages that they do not want to file with the court. Then our client counts the pages and fills in the number."

Alrighty, then. Sounds pretty fishy, huh?

"Well, no can do. Better find another notary . . . "

"Wait. Go ahead and fill in the number of pages in, but you must count the pages carefully before filling in the blank."

Sure thing. It is the Affiant's statement, not mine. I did not belabor the point, but the Affiant will count the pages, as usual, and probably have it filled in before I get there. I am not supposed to see the pages they attach because they are patient records.

I leave the affidavit on top of them and the oath they take indicates the truth that certain records are thereto attached.

Ridiculous.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 9/18/04 7:59am
Msg #8250

My answer to the "hiring" agency is pretty simple and straightforward. According the Florida Statutes, Chapter 117.107, "(10) A notary public may not notarize a signature on a document if the document is incomplete or blank." End of discussion.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/18/04 1:59pm
Msg #8277

PAW NS states:
"My answer to the "hiring" agency is pretty simple and straightforward. According the Florida Statutes, Chapter 117.107, "(10) A notary public may not notarize a signature on a document if the document is incomplete or blank." End of discussion."
------------

Thanks for the citation. If any other states want to chime in with their "no blank" statutes, I would appreciate having it for reference for addressing these problems in Texas.

Reply by Jon on 9/18/04 2:43pm
Msg #8280

Brenda said:

"Thanks for the citation. If any other states want to chime in with their "no blank" statutes, I would appreciate having it for reference for addressing these problems in Texas."

I would say check the Texas statutes, the laws in CA, FL, NY, AK, or ND really don't matter in Texas. You must follow Texas law to do your job properly. I have had out-of-state companies tell me to do things that are unlawful in CA because it was allowed in their state(the most common thing is to certify capacity.) If Texas law doesn't address the situation, call the governing authority in TX to get clarification.

That said, Ca Government Code 8205(a)(2)"... A notary public may not accept any acknowledgment or proof of any instrument that is incomplete."

There you go.

Reply by PAW Notary Services on 9/18/04 3:18pm
Msg #8283

I certainly can understand Brenda's concern since the Texas laws and handbook (from what I have read) makes no mention of "incomplete" or even "blank" documents presented for notarization.

Reply by HisHughness on 9/18/04 3:45pm
Msg #8290

Jon advised Brenda TX:

***I would say check the Texas statutes, the laws in CA, FL, NY, AK, or ND really don't matter in Texas. ***

Jon, Brenda knows Texas notary law; knows it, in fact, better than I do. She knows it so well that she knows that there is no provision in the law regarding executing affidavits with blanks. As a former legal secretary, she also knows that the laws of other jurisdictions do not apply in Texas. She is, I'm sure, simply looking for what lawyers call "persuasive authority," as opposed to controlling authority, which is what a Texas statute addressing the issue would be. Brenda has this compulsion about blanks. She doesn't like blanks in affidavits. She avoids movies where the cowboys fire blanks. She does not cotton to people who "blankety blank can't say a blankety blank sentence without a blankety blank obscenity." And God forbid that you would ever, ever look at her with a blank stare.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/18/04 6:40pm
Msg #8312

Hugh summed it up accurately "Brenda has this compulsion about blanks."

I fear I am going to have to go to a 12-Step Program about it.
It's driving me crazy because I have seen some blanks that make me shudder. The only recourse is if I can insist on the completion of the blank as a requirement of my notary journal - the main thing that the Texas Notary Laws really addresses. Sometimes, I can make that work.

Before I go to the weekly meeting where I have to admit that "My name is Brenda and I am a no-blank Nazi." I'd like to channel that energy into something productive like getting some attention paid to this problem from the lawmakers. Thus, my question on getting citations.

Hugh's right, Jon, I am looking for persuasive authority.

I can appreciate what you said, however, and think it was good to reinforce to new notaries that they must learn the laws in their states and not follow those of any other. I'd sure like to grab the Florida laws for notaries on occasion, but no can do!

(Yep, Hugh, I guess blank stares do fire me up.)

Reply by Jon on 9/19/04 10:02pm
Msg #8405

I kind of figured that the TX handbook(or whatever you have in TX) didn't address the issue, which is why I also mentioned calling the TX authority to get an answer. I also like to answer in a way that will make people think(hopefully about the issue and not what's wrong with this guy ). I suppose the post did seem like it was directed at newbies, my apologies if you were offended. As far as persuasive authority, I'm just a notary and knowing that term seems like UPL to me. ;)

Actually, since Hugh is a lawyer, it might not be UPL for him.

Reply by Jon on 9/19/04 10:03pm
Msg #8406

I kind of figured that the TX handbook(or whatever you have in TX) didn't address the issue, which is why I also mentioned calling the TX authority to get an answer. I also like to answer in a way that will make people think(hopefully about the issue and not what's wrong with this guy ). I suppose the post did seem like it was directed at newbies, my apologies if you were offended. As far as persuasive authority, I'm just a notary and knowing that term seems like UPL to me. ;)

Actually, since Hugh is a lawyer, it might not be UPL for him.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/20/04 8:04am
Msg #8417

Says Jon: "I kind of figured that the TX handbook(or whatever you have in TX) didn't address the issue, which is why I also mentioned calling the TX authority to get an answer. I also like to answer in a way that will make people think(hopefully about the issue and not what's wrong with this guy ). I suppose the post did seem like it was directed at newbies, my apologies if you were offended. As far as persuasive authority, I'm just a notary and knowing that term seems like UPL to me.

Actually, since Hugh is a lawyer, it might not be UPL for him."

-------------
No offense taken, Jon. Hugh and I kind of look out for each other, being two of the very few Texas notaries who regularly get involved in forums. I have been exceedingly grateful for the information I have learned on the forums and I think he feels the same way, based on the posts of his I have read stating this.

I agree, Hugh probably does have the right to address the importantance of a certain blank in a document--in fact, the Texas UPL website almost says that exact thing.

If anyone cares to review it: Texas UPL website is at http://txuplc.org

But me, a notary without any "formal" legal training, don't think so...unless I can tie it into the information required by the journal of a notary--which is exhaustively covered.

For entertaining reading for notary types, The Texas Handbook for notaries:
http://www.sos.state.tx.us/statdoc/edinfo.shtml

Please continue to comment. Offense won't be taken, unless you comment on my age, my beloved Texas A&M University, or the mud flaps on my Pontiac Grand Am.

Reply by Jon on 9/20/04 9:44am
Msg #8427

Mud flaps on your Pontiac Grand Am?? Enough said.

Reply by HisHughness on 9/20/04 10:23am
Msg #8431

BrendaTX noted:

***Offense won't be taken, unless you comment on my age, my beloved Texas A&M University, or the mud flaps on my Pontiac Grand Am.***

Brenda, who, whatever her age, is old enough to know not to serve up a soft one like that to a UT Longhorn, needs mud flaps on her Pontiac Grand Am because the streets in her hometown of College Station were paved by Aggie engineers.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/20/04 11:24am
Msg #8441

One of these days, Alice-Hugh...

(:>)

Reply by CarolynCO on 9/18/04 5:19pm
Msg #8304

Brenda said "If any other states want to chime in with their "no blank" statutes, I would appreciate having it for reference for addressing these problems in Texas."

Colorado law prohibits notarizing blank documents. CRS 12-55-107.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/18/04 7:39pm
Msg #8319

Thanks, Carolyn. I'll take a look at that.

Reply by CarolynCO on 9/18/04 8:19pm
Msg #8322

You're welcome, Brenda. We all know what assumptions are, but I just assumed that no state allowed notarizing blanks or incomplete docs.

Reply by BrendaTX on 9/18/04 9:44pm
Msg #8328

We have copious rules on journal keeping, and some on ID's, and prices, but little else.

Since our journals require a brief description of the documents, I am using that to grasp a little bit of foundation for doing away with significant blanks left in the docs that I notarize.

There are a few other little tidbits that are said about notarial acts involving property. Acts that transfer or "charge" property require more detail in the notary's journal, so that's what I hang my hat on when doing signings so I can get as much of the information completed as possible without overstepping my bounds.