Posted by LynnNC on 7/22/06 2:38pm
Signing of loan documents by Attorney in Fact
The current “NSA Now” e-newsletter has an article on the signing of loan documents when there is Attorney in Fact. In a section on what Notaries must be aware of, the following was written:
“Confirm that the power of attorney applies. NSAs should make sure that the attorney in fact is authorized to sign for the principal in a loan transaction. Powers of attorney may be general or specific. General powers of attorney enable the attorney in fact to sign in all circumstances, while specific powers of attorney allow signing only for the specified purpose outlined in the power of attorney.”
I don’t think that it should be up to a Notary to determine if the Attorney in Fact has the necessary powers to sign loan documents. The lender should be aware of the fact that an AIF is going to sign the documents and have a copy of the POA document to make the determination.
Reply by TitleGalCA on 7/22/06 3:01pm
You are right-on Lynn. NNA is running out of topics, IMO n/m
Reply by BrendaTx on 7/22/06 3:57pm
Re: You are right-on Lynn. NNA is ... Titlegallopnot
Absolutely. You are correct.
They used to call me on occasion for quotes but haven't heard from them since I slopped my glass dripper and went from princess to commonfolk. (Meaning, of course, not renewing my membership.) Or, perhaps, they do not use notary quotes any longer because the quotes may not be printworthy words. Being clear, of course, that this is pure, unadulterated speculation.
Newsworthy information would be something like Dog's letter to them regarding suggested fees, or how to cut costs, seek other *notary* work now that there is a slowdown of loan work, whether temporary or permanent. I don't get their newsletter any longer, so again, more speculation that they have not run such an article(s).
To comment on the slowdown, however, I must admit that my next week and other prospective loan work is rather promising. Another title company has come to the Texas network and said, "we are done with signing services and sick of the notaries they hire not completing the packages properly." I cannot complain and in fact, feel rather jubilant over my recent good fortune.
Reply by Signing_Doc on 7/22/06 8:22pm
feel rather jubilant over my recent good fortune.
must be nice Brenda-le...as I stated earlier, I have a signing next week (tuesday) but except for the upcoming one, I've had ONE signing this whole month. It's deader than the flea on the dog which just been dipped (hows that one?!) "Doc" (by the by, did you get to what I sent you?...just axing)
Reply by BrendaTx on 7/22/06 8:24pm
Re: feel rather jubilant over my recent good fortune.
Yep, Doc, I did and will review when I catch up on my rest and can give it a good review...probably tomorrow...before Monday starts an already busy week.
Reply by Signing_Doc on 7/22/06 8:31pm
Re: feel rather jubilant over my recent good fortune.
well good on you 'lil darlin'...hope all goes well with you and your'n...(i'm a little bit country....i'm a little bit ROCK AND ROLL)...thanks...hopefully things will pick up here... from your mouth to G-d's ear...Baruch H'Shem....Shabbat Shalom...
"Doc" Shmuli (Stuart)
Reply by Kate/CA on 7/22/06 9:25pm
The reason I like to see the POA is to make sure how the person that is signing the POA is to sign his/her name. I had one this week, person didn't have a clue. When we looked at it to check, he found out he had to spell out his middle name and add SR. Had he just signed as he wanted, it would not have matched the POA. Better to check, than be sorry later. If they don't have it, and they don't sign properly, its on them.
Reply by ewing2surf on 7/22/06 9:47pm
You newbies need to understand that the NNA helped to write the State Handbook.
It is absolutely the Notary's duty to check for the existence of the Power of Attorney then review it's authenticity before allowing the Attorney in Fact to sign for the principal. If the lender already possesses the POA there should be written proof in the lenders instructions. NSA's (me, many times) have been instructed by the Lender to pick up the POA and include it with the signed Loan Docs.
Reply by TitleGalCA on 7/22/06 9:52pm
***You newbies need to understand that the NNA helped to write the State Handbook.***
Is that right?
***It is absolutely the Notary's duty to check for the existence of the Power of Attorney then review it's authenticity before allowing the Attorney in Fact to sign for the principal***
Wow. All the attorney's I work with would turn me in for UPL in that circumstance. I'd hike up the 'ole E&O insurance bond, Joe.
Reply by CaliNotary on 7/23/06 4:30am
What is really scary is that this guy is teaching classes to new notaries.
Reply by John_NorCal on 7/22/06 11:09pm
****It is absolutely the Notary's duty to check for the existence of the Power of Attorney then review it's authenticity before allowing the Attorney in Fact to sign for the principal.***
Where do you come with that Joe? Reading the CA acknowledgement the signer is acknowledging they have the proper authority, the notary does not make any representation as to capacity of the signer. It is not the notaries job to ascertain the validity or legality of any document. The notary is there to acknowledge a signature or tender an oath to an affiant. A title company will want a copy of the POA, and they will usually have it before hand, so that they can insure the title.
Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 7/23/06 1:04am
I agree completely with John
What are you thinking? We acknowledge signatures and not the capacity of a signer.
Reply by ewing2surf on 7/23/06 2:13am
Re: I agree completely with John
Especially since it can involve real property transfers and under the definition of reasonable care, I firmly stand by my statement. I fact, I have verified to my satisfaction the existence of a POA in every one of the hundreds of Attorney in Fact Notarizations that I issued a certificate for.
It continues to be a mystery to me that there is so much lack of logical thought on this message board. Some of you would adjourn a signing for a misspelled word yet willingly and without reasonable care issue a certificate of acknowledgment when one of the property owners does not personally appear.
UPL Sharon? How about CYA?
Reply by PAW on 7/23/06 5:16am
Maybe this is true in CA but certainly NOT in FLORIDA
According to the Florida Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries (page 40):
It is not the notary‘s responsibility to ensure that the signer has power of attorney. The person states he has that authority and indicates this fact when he signs - just accept his word.
Note: If you are notarizing in connection with your employment, you may need to require a copy of the POA for your employer‘s files.
Reply by John_NorCal on 7/23/06 8:57am
Re: Maybe this is true in CA but certainly NOT in FLORIDA
Actually Paul, CA follows the same train of thought as I've stated in my post.
As for Joe, since he is so concerned with CYA, what would happen if he turned down a POA which he determined to be bogus and it is actually genuine, the borrower might be in danger of losing a rate lock because of his actions. What then, where's the CYA then?
Reply by MistarellaFL on 7/23/06 3:19pm
How about CYA with the law?
I CMA with Florida law.....
Reply by Diga2Lin/FL on 7/22/06 11:46pm
I posted on this same issue yesterday -
The NNA's article states that the NSA's are to "confirm that the POA applies" - has nothing to do with the authenticity. They're saying it's up to NSA's to confirm that the attorney-in-fact has the authority under the POA to sign the loan docs and I feel that's outside the realm of the NSA. That's a determination that should be made by the lender or TC prior to the signing of the docs and a copy of that POA should have been provided to the lender in advance for review.
I feel the only thing the NSA should be doing is making sure the person in front of you IS the AIF in the POA (through proper identification) and that he/she signs exactly as his/her name appears on the POA. Beyond that, reviewing the body of the POA for the powers bestowed by it on the AIF is outside the NSA authority.
Reply by pat leyes on 7/23/06 3:18am
I have power of attorney for a property of my brothers. When he purchased the property and refinanced we sent the original POA document to the lender. They authorized the notary to notarize the documents. Notary never asked to see anything except my ID.
Reply by John_NorCal on 7/23/06 8:59am
And that's exactly how it should have been handled. For further protection, the POA is sometime recorded.
Reply by ewing2surf on 7/23/06 11:49am
John I don't turn down POA's I just verify them. If a Lender says they have it I'm satisfied. If I get a blind call to go to somewhere and the signer wants to sign as Attorney in Fact I need to see the POA.
I just forget sometime that this is not the Premier Web Site for Professional Notaries but a Web site for Signing Agents who also happen to be notaries.
Reply by patricia on 7/23/06 10:15pm
yes, each time I signed loan documents the POA was recorded.
Reply by TitleGalCA on 7/23/06 10:18pm
Both of you are out of your minds. n/m
Reply by TitleGalCA on 7/23/06 10:19pm
POA's arent required to be recorded its just a nice touch n/m