Posted by KizzeTNCA on 3/5/07 4:28pm
Msg #178359

I Guess Im tired of being silent $75 edocs Please

I just can’t understand the way we are thinking as notaries (I’m including myself in this) for taking these fees, I have been silent for way to long and intend to stop here. I refuse to accept these ridiculous prices, for a service, I know I do way to well. We do way too much and they ask way too much for $75. Are they crazy $75 e-docs and I don’t care if it is in my area.

1. I have to print out all of the signing companies instructions
2. Then they call several times to make sure of this and that, taking up my minutes.
3. Then there are the calls from the title company saying did you get the e-docs.
4. Printing the e-docs
5. Driving to Borrowers house
6. Dealing with borrowers
7. Dealing with the many title companies and signing companies rules
8. Fax backs-Please
9. Invoicing
10. Fed ex Pick-Up/Drop Off
11. Etc…..

The list goes on and there nothing wrong with this. It’s a business we as mobile notaries signing agents. And we are worth so much more, but we are letting them run us over. The only thing a signing company does is gets the job, we as notaries can do that on are own. We still schedule appointment sometimes, do the foot work, print the docs, explain to the borrowers certain terms, we represent all parties.

Now see this all takes time. Especially, when we are doing other docs and handling other business. But for some strange reason these companies think this is the only job you have. So as your working on this job trying to do things right, quick and with a budget. The signing company is giving you this price that no where u deserve. $75 please. If you sign a couple I’m sure u will notarize $80 worth of signatures
$10 worth of paper
$10 worth of ink
$10 worth of gas
$10 worth of phone calls
$50 worth of time
that equals =$170

I mean come on Notaries what is our time, effort, equipment, patients, classes, and everything we have put into this business worth? Why are we are really accepting this crap. Just think about it, if the shoe was on the other foot, would they? No, cause there going to make sure there business stays a float and it won’t for those prices.

It is about keeping your game tight and being professional, making money to stay alive but it is also about knowing that united we stand, and divided we fall.

Reply by Janet Sobers on 3/5/07 4:39pm
Msg #178361

You are right on! I don't want to do the overnight docs for $75 but I will. I don't understand who can do signings for $40... How do you pay the bills with that fee? If we all set a higher standard and a higher fee to match, we are in much better bargaining position... Come on everyone. Don't take those fees. You are worth more and the signing company can give it to you if they are forced to do so.

Reply by Calnotary on 3/5/07 4:53pm
Msg #178364

That fee doesn't even cover my O/N lowest fee for a regular client and with no faxbacks.

Reply by KizzeTNCA on 3/5/07 4:58pm
Msg #178366

Yeah it doesn't cover anything, i'm just saying im tired of them coming at me with this, it's an insult. Then when I tell them I can't accept that fee they don't want to nego they rather find somebody who will except $75.

Reply by Kenneth Pallante on 4/19/08 1:46pm
Msg #244148

I just joined Notary Rotary. I have done 100's of closings over the years. I am surprised that these closing companies offer so little. I will not leave my house for less that $150 fee. That is a rate and term re-fi with zero questions using e-docs. Anything else - and the price goes up. They all express great surprise and mumble, "We have someone that will do it for $50" I, always, reply .."Then call them." This is a business; I do nothing for free.

Reply by Charm_AL on 3/5/07 4:58pm
Msg #178365

acceptable fees

I'm with you on acceptable fees, as you stated in numbers 1-10, these are all a part of the job we signed on for. Can't complain, all you can do is adjust your fees to suit your needs.
You are preaching to the choir about low fees, however your bottom list is over exaggerated.
If you (not you personally) have a brain, a business plan, etc... and know what you need and want out of this career, you will be able to determine what you need to charge and how many you can do to survive financially. I can charge a whopping $1.50 per sig/stamp.

They simply do not care if you take their fee or not because they know without a doubt that a part timer, inexperienced or someone in financial straits will. They will go out of business sending notaries that don't have a clue before they'll raise their fees and contract the ones that do. I will accept a $75. HELOC in my zip any day of the week. All I know is, have great T.Cs and SSs and the $75. signings help keep the pipeline filled.
If the kids are hungry or the bills aren't getting paid, it's time to rethink being self-employed in this field.
It's going to get worse before it gets better. Now is definitely not the time for starting out green as a full time NSA without a plan B. The two top reasons are over saturation, and the sub-prime market falling apart. We all better be ready to roll with the punches and market smarter or it's punch a clock somewhere.

Reply by KizzeTNCA on 3/5/07 5:06pm
Msg #178367

Re: acceptable fees

Im sorry I dont agree Im talkin edocs sweety. $75 is not acceptable no where. And Im in The good ole Ca so we get to charge $10 per signature. Im sorry you can't and in any other state that can't. But still your time, effort, ink, paper, calls, internet service, etc, is billiable in the corp. world they do it every day and why shouldn't you. Beside that. Edocs $75 I just don't think so. Especially when things go wrongs, borrowers copies, printing confirmations, etc. $75 does not cover all that we go threw Im sorry. But if your will to accept it thank you for lowering the bar.

Reply by Janet Sobers on 3/5/07 5:14pm
Msg #178370

Re: acceptable fees

We notaries public in Louisiana are lucky too. There are NO set fees at all. We have to charge what is "reasonable and customary". Many notaries charge $20 or more for a single notarization, dependant upon what the document is and what length of time is spent on it. We don't have to use any seal, keep a journal or any of those other requirements. Our signature is what notarized docs here and there is no official seal here. So, in any event, we can charge more and most do, but there are still some new ones that think that $75 is all right for e-docs. I disagree, and always will. Miniumum wage at best because the above list of fees did not cover errors and ommissions insurance, bonds, and so many other costs of doing business, like having your name listed on many sites, etc. $75 is NOT enough for a professional notary doing a professional error-free signing...

Reply by CaliNotary on 3/5/07 11:05pm
Msg #178417

Re: acceptable fees

"But still your time, effort, ink, paper, calls, internet service, etc, is billiable in the corp. world they do it every day and why shouldn't you."

Charm wasn't saying that you shouldn't bill for these things, just that the amounts you gave for each of them was overestimated. A 500 sheet ream of paper should cost us no more than $5, so we're not using $10 worth of paper for edocs. Ink is even cheaper than paper so we're not using $10 worth of ink. You should have a cell phone plan that more than covers your necessary monthly minutes, so we're don't end up with $10 worth of phone charges per signing. And so on.

Yes, you do need to take all of your expenses into consideration when deciding fees, but you need to be realistic about what the expenses are actually costing you.

Reply by Frank Calderone on 3/5/07 5:08pm
Msg #178368

Re: acceptable fees

I charge $125 base fee withen 25 miles and $25 for edocs. I have cut some companies a break and did the closing for $125 to test my service. I have also turned down $80 jobs. Sure it hurts losing that money but if you continue to sell yourself short then maybe it is time to leave the business. I know what I am worth and the skills and knowledge I bring to the table.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 3/5/07 5:50pm
Msg #178372

Re: acceptable fees

I guess I'm with Charmer and Bob on this one...I too do O/N's within my zip for $75 and don't find it either insulting OR unprofitable. I guess it just depends on what area you're in...that's the beauty of being self-employed...you can just say no.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 3/5/07 5:10pm
Msg #178369

I am not condoning low fees, but I do not believe that.....

you are realistic on your costs.
Paper at Sam's is about 1/2 cent per sheet.
My toner/maintenance cost is one cent per page ( realize
is less than most ) Therefore, a 100 page pkg with bwr copies is $3.
$10 worth of gas will take you about 80 to100 miles,
no idea where $10 worth of phone calls came, form. You should have
a realistic calling plan to reflect your normal phone use.
The lenders, TCs, SSs, etc are in hard times too, and are doing all
that they can to cut costs. $hit rolls downhill, and we are at the bottom of the hill.
Do whatever you can to cut your costs, combine trips, etc.
You have to determine what YOUR actual incremental costs are of doing
differnet types of signings, and factor that in in determining if to take an
offered job and make someting as opposed to sitting home and making nothing.

Reply by KizzeTNCA on 3/5/07 5:28pm
Msg #178371

Re: I am not condoning low fees, but I do not believe that.....

The problem here is that we are not think real business we are thinking saving. What are you talking about. Kinko charges 9 cent a page. Shell charges $2.97. what if I dont have a Sams club membership. I drive a ford Tarus. I dont know what u drive. And if the title company constantly calls for this and that even if you have a reasonable rate plan some where your going to run over. I estimated some numbers. But know this. I spend at least 30 minutes checking emails, 30 minutes on the phone, 30-45 printing, 30 - 2 hours driving, 45-1 1/2 hour signing. what is that all worth.

Reply by Lorraine Lougheed on 3/5/07 5:59pm
Msg #178374

Re: I am not condoning low fees, but I do not believe that.....

Hello everyone,

I have never joined in a discussion, but I just want to point out that normally from the time the call is recieved for a signing to shipment, it takes anywhere from 3+ hours and by the time you add hard cost for EO, bond, paper, etc. it adds up. Therefore I am with the rest of you, my fees are $100 plus $$ for e-docs plus $$ for over 20 mile r. plus additional $50.00 for a second, and I don't get turn down to often, and when I do get turned down, well, lets just say that it makes me open for the next one that will pay my fees.

Reply by LawrenceOK on 3/5/07 6:35pm
Msg #178377

And if you are rural Lorraine add

An extra 2 hours for travel time. Country roads do NOT travel a straight line.

Reply by Lorraine Lougheed on 3/5/07 6:49pm
Msg #178378

Re: And if you are rural Lorraine add

I'm in Arizona, we have freeways everywhere now, my round trip of 20 miles is $100.00, additional $25.00 if its a mile more than that, and this is not e-docs. I just took one for tomorrow at 4:00 paying $125.00 meeting at the title company, "no need to print," and they never hassle for a lower fee. I started out with signing agencies for the experience, took classes as they were available and I read everything I can get my hands on to stay up to date. The only time I take a $85.00 signing, is if its from a signing agency and they send me the docs as well as beeing within a 5 mile radias.

Reply by Nick_OH on 3/6/07 7:38am
Msg #178432

Re: And if you are rural Lorraine add

I agree with you Lawrence. I'm in a rural area and I'm constantly explaining that although map quest says it's only 25 miles, they don't realize it'll take 45 mins to 1 hr to get there. I don't do many signings in my zip code, because of that I try to average $50 hr for signings. If I can get more I will.

Reply by Charm_AL on 3/5/07 7:42pm
Msg #178388

Kizzie...

I guess it depends on the companies that you sign up for and accept work for. I will fax if it's the first assignment or there's no rtc. I do not spend anywhere near the time that you claim you do with these companies, nor do I drive more than 1/2 -45 minutes for a signing. Maybe you should look at your demographics and professionalism (companies read this forum and tend to skip by the notaries with frequently misspell words, along with grammar and punctuation.
I also have my own printer and do not allow Kinko's to have anything to do with my borrower's info. I will call another notary to print if I can't.
I network those farther out signings to a few people I work with thru-out the state. I have some excellent contacts that pay wonderful fees and I have some that I will take if my personal conditions are met. I also have companies that call me first and those that call me knowing the signing is not feasible to me but they trust that I can get them a fellow networker that knows what they are doing.

I drove 5 miles for 1 sig from a Doc today for $30. I had nothing else going on and that fee will buy a tank of gas for 1/2 hour of my time. I had two closing this evening, and I made more than many make in a 40 hour work week. I am not defending myself for the accusation of lowering the bar, I do not believe I am. I am happy with my income and reputation and I'd rather start my car and drive for 5-10 minutes with a 15 - 20 minute pkg for $75., if there's an opening beats of sitting here on a message forum complaining that I'm not making the $$$ that I want to. I'm not cutting off my nose to spite my face. I'm keeping the pipeline filled. By the way, I do a lot of signings well over $125. that more than make up for the minimum fee I accept.

Truly Yours,

AlwaysMarketing

Reply by Janet Sobers on 3/5/07 8:10pm
Msg #178394

Everyone is different/ We all have different situations

Here, especially after Katrina, for every signing unless it is in your home zip, you must allow at least 30 minutes each way for travel, even for signings that are 10 miles away. Katrina did a number on traffic flow in my area and for out of town signings that are really not that far away, I must allow at least an hour each way. I realize that it is not the fault of the title or signing company but I am at liberty to say "no thank you" and ask for and insist on higher fees. I don't use Kinkos either and I have a high quality laser printer that is relatively inexpensive to operate. I have great companies that call me first and some of them do pay slightly lower than the price I would feel comfortable with but I would not do e-docs for $75 for a full mortgage. HELOC is less printing and less signing time, so that might be all right. Point being: I don't begrudge anyone for accepting lower fees, but for me, I strive to do a professional job and I appreciate my pay to reflect the same. I can't judge anyone else's situation but in a perfect world, they would all pay a decent amount for the signings. A girl can dream, right?

Reply by CaliNotary on 3/5/07 11:15pm
Msg #178419

Re: I am not condoning low fees, but I do not believe that..

"The problem here is that we are not think real business we are thinking saving. What are you talking about. Kinko charges 9 cent a page. Shell charges $2.97. what if I dont have a Sams club membership."

No, the problem is that YOU aren't thinking like a real business. Why on earth would you use Kinkos to print out edocs when you can buy a laser printer to do it at home for a fraction of the price? What if you don't have a Sam's Club membership? Go to Sam's Club and get one.

Real businesses look at all the options available to them and choose the ones that fit their needs in a cost effective way. They don't just throw a bunch of random numbers out and base their pricing on something with virtually no basis in reality.

And the one thing you're also leaving out of the equation is competition. We can say that we're worth whatever we want to say we're worth, but if there are 1000 other people in a 20 mile radius who are willing to say they're worth less, guess who's going to get the business? That's because the people hiring us are ALSO looking at all the options available to them and choosing the ones that fit their needs in a cost effective way.

Reply by KizzeTNCA on 3/5/07 5:54pm
Msg #178373

Well My whole point is that when u settle for less there will be no room for negotiations. 75 65 55 45 35 25 00... 75 doesn't look far from 00 to me.

Reply by cara on 3/5/07 6:29pm
Msg #178376

Congratulations for arriving at the point where you are confident in asking for a professional fee for professional services. I think that anyone who stays in business long enough comes to this point.

I too, will take an overnighted HELOC in my zip code for much less that I would charge for a “regular” e-doc signing. Asking for higher fees is not about gouging anyone, it is about fair compensation. Our overhead extends beyond the cost of a sheet of paper and cost of toner divided by the number of sheets printed. How about purchase and maintenance of our equipment (computer, fax, phone, printer, GPS, mileage and/or shipping & handling for supplies, space costs (a pro rated cost of rent, utilities, taxes & insurance) phone rates (land line and cell), advertising, continuing education, office supplies, taxes, professional dues and fees, etc.) in addition to our time? Anyone who has done budgeting in the commercial world recognizes that every hour of service time has some administrative overhead associated with it. That cost is usually factored into an hourly rate. I doubt that everyone is calculating how much time an assignment takes from the moment of the first call to the time you return from dropping the final package. And, how about all that billing time and effort many complain about?!

I just turned down a 1st and 2nd bilingual signing to be scheduled ASAP for $95.00.

The last 1st and 2nd bilingual loan signing I did went on and on with the borrower making many calls to broker and broker accusing me "explaining too much" since the borrower questioned why there was a 2nd, the interest rates, pay off items (loans from previous owner encumbering the property), blank space (amount of broker's commission!). While I only pointed out the preprinted terms as usual, I felt that the broker was trying to intimidate me into shutting the borrower up and getting the docs signed no matter what. The broker even had the nerve to tell me that if I were experienced enough I would know that it was not unusual to leave the broker’s commission blank on a document! The number of pages was over 250 per set. Due to so some document preparation errors, I had to rush out with some corrected docs the next day, meeting the borrower after her workday, snag the signatures on corrected docs and rush to drop the package before FedEx deadline (I did get an additional trip fee). I would have shot myself if I had agreed to do it for $75! No, I well know that this kind of signing can easily entail more than $95 worth of work.

Often, the shakier the loan, the more problems there are at the signing. The signing service which called today claimed that they would not be making any money if they paid me more than $95. If this is true, then I highly suspect a sub prime loan. Sometimes I feel that we should charge a sub prime loan stress premium since if is often very hard not to worry about the borrowers for a long time after the signing. But, someone out hear was happy to take it and did. (I wonder if they will the next time?)

Reply by KizzeTNCA on 3/5/07 9:20pm
Msg #178405

Cara you know exactly what i am saying exactly!

Reply by marlindog on 3/5/07 9:37pm
Msg #178406

I agree and I would not do it

Reply by marlindog on 3/5/07 9:45pm
Msg #178408

at least $125 edocs $100 with out these are bare mnm pr think of all the responsability that you are taking on I dont care if its next door!

Reply by CaliNotary on 3/5/07 11:18pm
Msg #178420

And if you're in an area that you can charge that much, good for you. If I refused to leave the house for less than $100 I'd be out of business within a month.

Reply by Katrina Arnaud on 3/6/07 3:32pm
Msg #178549

Kizzie - $75 edocs Please

Kizze:

I certainly feel you're frustration, but the complexity is beyond the obvious. Before the market shifts again, you may be very happy to have a $50 signing.

Home loans have been boom and bust several times: I'm old enough to recall the 11.5% interest loans from the '70's, and people still bought real estate. This is something different. There were too many adjustable loans above the 80/20, credit below 650, and housing prices dropped. The loan-to-value isn't there to support a refi, borrowers can't support their adjusted payments, and we are seeing record forclosures. It is cheaper for the borrower to walk away from a home if the loan-to-value doesn't support the original appraised value - the key reason appraisal values are always under scrutiny - even a $1K variance from neighborhood comps. Sub-prime has always been in bed with their appraisers and could ask for a value to come in at the amount needed to justify the loan.

Investors in the sub-prime market, just like the notaries, are in business for the quarterly investor dividend reports - profit. When an investment stops producing top-dollar returns, investment dollars move elsewhere, and it will in this case too. No investors, no sub-prime loans. Remember, home loans are federally insured and we, the tax payer, are paying the price for defaulted loans.

Are you old enough to remember President Regan and the air traffic controllers' union busting? Wages continue to take a spiral down, consumer goods as well, because of competitive foreign market competition, and you're point is well taken, that if other notaries will continue to sign for $75., how can we justify or sustain higher signing fee?

I have to chuckle reading your to-do-list; they are the duties of a signing agent. Period. Who better to perform these duties? Possibly in the free enterprise system we should charge more, but this market won't allow that to happen.

You didn't state the obvious: your cost of doing business is much higher than you suspected (E&O insurance, notary supplies, commission, fingerprints, background check, bond, training, electricity, cell phone, training, equipment, DSL, dedicated fax lines, E-Fax...).

Realistically, if you are using a laser printer as required, your consumable cost-per page should be closer to $.02 per page. Paper, by the case is approximately $$4/ream $5/ream - legal; and gas and telephone calls are relative to your coverage area. Are you really covering a large service or rural area? Many hardworking people are working for $8/hour or less: how many hours to you put into each package signed? Our most expensive time is the time we are not signing, printing, faxing, shipping and making contacts.

My telephone isn't ringing either, so this is the way I looking at this: If I receive a telephone call for an assignment that pays more than the project cost, I am going to take it. If I have an opportunity to take a higher-paying assignment that conflicts with the lower paying assignment, I will prioritize the higher paying job.

Realistically, a large percentage of small businesses fail within the first year from lack of operating capital and some of us won't financially survive. Larger companies diversify and adapt to the market conditions; a little tough for a signing agent offering only one service.

The states are revenue generating and are cranking out notaries and signing agents like a cookie cutting plant. All of us what to make a good living, unfortunately we chose a highly competitive field and many of us are working in a super-saturated market.

Turn your hat around backwards and pray for an election year.

Good luck in your business.

Katrina