Posted by Ernest__CT on 11/1/07 9:34pm
Msg #219371

A warning re stamps, especially for the new Notary Public.

Recently I moved, updating my Commission with the Secretary of State, as is required in Connecticut. I subsequently got snailmail from the usual suspects: Firms that produce stamps and embossing seals.

A firm located in PA sent a one-page flier for various stamps. Among the stamps were at least two that _clearly_ violate CT Notary law. No CT Notary Public can certify that a copy is A True Copy, for example.

Know _your_ state's law! Even though an ignorant firm wants to sell you stamps, _you_ are the one responsible for knowing what acts are legally permissible.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 11/1/07 9:37pm
Msg #219373

Clarification re "True Copy"

There _are_ ways for a CT Notary Public to solve the this-is-a-true-copy question, but the Notary saying "I certify this to be a complete ... true copy..." is _NOT IT_.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/2/07 5:54am
Msg #219389

How I use my C/T/C stamp ...

The stamping and signing of anything as a C/T/C as a Notary Public may not be a legal notarial act .... but the stamping and signing of something as a C/T/C as a PERSON, and NOT as a notarial act nor in the capacity as a notary public IS.

Where this comes into play for the NSA is with split-ship pkgs, where you have the original mtg going back to the Title Agent, and they need a C/T/C of that to be sent in the Lender's pkg. The PERSON who has the original makes the copy and the PERSON can stamp it "Certified True Copy" and sign their name. They do not do it as a notarial act, so they do NOT put "notary public" after their name, nor do they perform any type of notarial act.

Reply by CF on 11/2/07 8:05am
Msg #219393

Re: How I use my C/T/C stamp ...

I agre with that. I understant that a person can sign a statement that it is a CTC of something then the notary can notarize the signature of that person stating that it is a CTC. As a notary you would not want to take on that responsibility???Can you notarize the signature of a person stating that it is a CTC? Would that be proper?

Reply by MelissaCT on 11/2/07 8:55am
Msg #219402

Re: How I use my C/T/C stamp ...

In CT, it *might* be proper to notarize the signature, BUT the person would need to tell me if I was performing an acknowledgement or a jurat in the notarization of the statement.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 11/2/07 9:15am
Msg #219414

MelissaCT is, as usual, correct.

In CT (at least) for a non-Notary to swear that a document is a true copy would be fine. It would also be fine for a Notary Public to swear that the doc was a true copy, as long as the swearing Notary did not then sign as a Notary Public. In the CT Notary Public Manual there is a suggested form for a statement of the _document custodian_ to certify that the copy is A True Copy.

Focus, people. The objective here was not to tell people how to certify a copy. The point was that _unless your state specifically says that Notaries Public may certify copies_, don't certify 'em, no matter who sells you an _illegally-worded_ stamp!

Reply by Mia on 11/2/07 11:16am
Msg #219447

Michigan

This is off the State of MI website.

"What is a certified copy of a document?

Answer: A certified copy is a duplicate of an original document that is certified as a true copy by the officer having custody of the original. Michigan notaries are prohibited from issuing certified copies of public records or any other documents. Requests for certified copies should be directed to the agency that holds or issued the original. "


.....

Reply by OR on 11/2/07 12:46pm
Msg #219457

Re:Oregon

In Oregon you may certify a copy of only some documents but it is recommend that you make the copy. We are "not allowed" to certify copy's of public records we are to tell the person to get them from the agencies that produced the document. It also is "illegal" to certify copies of birth or death certificates in Oregon.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/2/07 2:58pm
Msg #219477

Yes, that is the directive to NOTARIES ...

That only applies to a person who is a notary public, who is performing a notarial act.

There is a big difference between the C/T/C that I described in this thread, and a copy certification performed as a notarial act.

Just hoping this is clear?

Reply by Mia on 11/2/07 6:58pm
Msg #219523

No

Renee, I really think you are stretching it. Who has told you that you are allowed
to C/T/C (C/T/C = certified true copy)?

Here is another tidbit from the State of MI website:
"In Michigan, only the issuer or holder (person named on the document) can certify to the authenticity of a document and that it is an original or true copy."

How do you feel that you fit into the above statement from the State of MI?

...

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 11/3/07 6:13am
Msg #219551

SOS v.s. a person writing something on paper

The quote you've posted is paraphrased from this:

"A Michigan notary public cannot make a "true copy" statement on copies of any records. Only the person named on the document or the issuer of the document can certify to its authenticity."

Again, this is relative to notarial acts, and certifications as notarial acts.

Lenders generally require a C/T/C of the mortgage (while waiting for the recorded one to find it's way home). It's an industry standard, has been as long as I can even remember - original gets sent for recording, and the title agent stamps the copy they made with C/T/C, and signs or initials at the stamp. (The stamp simply says "Certified True Copy", nothing else.)

I've been asked numerous times as an NSA (on split-ships) to C/T/C the Lender's copy, and I have absolutely no qualms about that. This C/T/C isn't done as a notarial act, and the SOS isn't involved - it is to satisfy the Lender's closing instruction requirements (again, industry standard). It's done PRIOR to recording (which is why it's even needed in the first place), so it is not yet a copy of a "record".

The SOS might have a wide area of governing power - but it certainly can't & doesn't try to tell an industry how to mark their own document to satisfy their own internal needs.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/3/07 10:00am
Msg #219560

Re: SOS v.s. a person writing something on paper

Renee' - when I see an argument like this two things come to mind--

One - it sounds more personal than for the purpose of debate.

Two - lack of knowledge of the industry; knowledge and experience has a narrow focus.

Either of those could be misjudgments from my armchair, it's just what it sounds like to me.

Reply by Mia on 11/3/07 12:06pm
Msg #219572

Re: SOS v.s. a person writing something on paper

Renee -- I did NOT paraphrase that information from the State of MI website. Please
check again.

I guess we will just have to disagree on this subject until the SOS says otherwise.

....

Reply by MichiganAl on 11/4/07 2:30am
Msg #219643

Mia, you're talking about apples vs oranges here

What you're quoting, what you're talking about, is related to notarial acts. What Renee is talking about isn't a notarial act. What the Sec. of State says has no bearing, it's not part of their jurisdiction. Splitting a package and certifying to the lender that the copy is a true copy of the original isn't the same thing as placing your notary seal on something and certifying that it's an original. Let's say the package splitting and certifying was being done at a title office by a clerical person who isn't a notary. Does the SOS have a say it that? Of course not. It's not a notarial act, it's just the practice of affirming that the copy wasn't altered.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/4/07 5:39am
Msg #219644

Re: Mia, you're talking about apples vs oranges here

Right, Al. I didn't answer this one because it's MI. For all I knew the MI sos had taken over the "acts" of everyone in addition to notaries. Good to see that is not the case.

Reply by Mia on 11/4/07 10:28am
Msg #219651

Al & Renee -- Certified True Copy / True Copy

I WILL get a clarification on this matter -- and yes IT WILL BE FROM THE SOS, or
someone who the SOS deems appropriate.

I will ask again -- who has told you that this is Legal and acceptable?

I do not believe that this subject is Apples vs Oranges.
MHO - if you are handling documents as a Notary or a Notary Signing Agent
or even just as a PERSON (as Renee says), you Can Not Certify a True Copy.
It is not your place to do so. I believe you are giving yourself powers that
you do not have. You are being hired as an independent contractor to be a
Notary / Notary Signing Agent / courier, -- how do you justify being able to
Certify a True Copy? This really baffles me!!

For many many years I worked for an Employer that dealt with millions of
documents. These documents were requested everyday --- when someone
requested that the documents be "Certified True Copy"....... the legal counsel
for the Employer stated that we were not to put any stamp or state that the
documents were a "Certified True Copy", we were only allowed to attach
a letter that the Legal Counsel had drafted..... that's all nothing more. (And,
the Employer was the issuer and holder of the doucments).

I am not an Attorney, Lawyer, Legal Counsel or a Legislator.

Reply by MichiganAl on 11/4/07 1:14pm
Msg #219655

Re: Al & Renee -- Certified True Copy / True Copy

You can get the SOS opinion, but in this matter, it might not mean any more than their opinion on global warming. When they're talking about CTC, they're talking about something different. When someone else creates a document and it's brought to us to certify, of course the stance is that we can't do that because we didn't create the document so we don't know anything about the original. In this case, we're talking about documents that were created by the lender or t.c. (right?), they send them to us, we get them signed, and if we have to split the package, we certify that we didn't alter THEIR documents before sending it back to THEM. That's a completely different act and not notarial in any way (so none of the SOS business). Is there any place that says this can be done? I don't know, probably not. There's no place that says it's ok to have casual Fridays either. It's just done as a practice. I just don't see it as a legal question.