Posted by GinaKY on 4/14/10 5:28pm
Msg #331733

Cal notaries - Help!!

I have a situation and a quick question. I have a cash purchase that needs to be done .... the Warrany Deed has the date at the top of April 16th 2010...... the notary say that it is illegal to notarize this document, even though she waas instructed to put the 14th in the acknowledgement section...... would this be an illegal transaction, because the bank is signing their part on the 16th, but the borrowers are signing today.
Thanks in advance!

Reply by LisaWI on 4/14/10 5:38pm
Msg #331737

I would think not, but I'll wait to see what the Californians say. If she notarizes with todays date, I would think the date at the top of the doc would be irrelevent.

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/14/10 5:39pm
Msg #331738

Gotta be signed on the date that's on the Doc. It can be signed afterward but not before.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 4/14/10 5:48pm
Msg #331743

Are you sure, James? I've done plenty of signings where the signer signed a day or two before the "official" day on the docs and it has never been an issue. I've always asked on those occasions, and have always been told to go ahead. Obviously... my certs were dated before the document date, but that's not my problem.

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/14/10 5:59pm
Msg #331750

I honestly be in the past it was O K but because of the new regulations that has changed. I will also qualify my statement by saying, Swab, Citi-Mortgage and certain local banks like Fremont do NOT allow that. So it really must depend on the lender. Sorry if I confused anyone.

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/14/10 6:07pm
Msg #331754

I wouldn't put any date other then the date I was notarizing though!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/14/10 5:44pm
Msg #331741

I'm a bit confused...the bank and borrowers have nothing to do with the Warranty deed - that's signed by the Sellers. What the buyers are doing and when they sign their bank papers has no bearing on this IME - unless it's a KY specific thing. And what bank papers? You said it was a cash purchase.

If the Sellers are signing the Deed on the 14th, that's the date that goes in the notary certificate...

I'm confused.

Reply by JAM/CA on 4/14/10 5:50pm
Msg #331747

I did a re-fi for friends, for docs from Wells Fargo, that was sent to them to find a notary. The docs were dated for March 31, 2010. WFB wanted the docs signed on March 19, 2010.

I said, "How are they going to get this to record, if you date everything for March 19 and my notarizations will say March 19 and the docs are dated March 31"? Went through without a hitch. Surprised me!!! WFB was aware of the date on docs.

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/14/10 6:04pm
Msg #331752

You're correct Linda ..Notarizing for the borrower of seller which one?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 4/14/10 5:45pm
Msg #331742

The date on the document itself does NOT matter to the notary.

The phrase, "instructed to put the 14th in the acknowledgement section" bothers me. The acknowledgment section belongs to the notary and NOBODY should be instructing her what date to put there except for state law. The date she enters is the date the signer appeared before her.

It's a big misconception that the document date and notarization date have to match.

For her to tell you it's "illegal" to notarize that document is ridiculous.

Reply by LisaWI on 4/14/10 5:48pm
Msg #331744

It sounds like to me this notary is very confused on her duties. She questioned the date on the top of the document and Gina told her to date todays date is what Im getting.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/14/10 5:50pm
Msg #331746

GMTA Lisa:) n/m

Reply by LisaWI on 4/14/10 6:21pm
Msg #331757

Re: GMTA Lisa:)

Awww, shucks Sylvia

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/14/10 5:49pm
Msg #331745

" "instructed to put the 14th in the acknowledgement section'

Have a feeling that the notary probably questioned the date on the doc, and was probably told that date didn't matter and just to put the 14th on the certificate as that was the day of the signing. Could have rephrased it to say just put the date of the notarization on the certificate" though.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 4/14/10 5:51pm
Msg #331748

I think you're right, Sylvia.

Although, I have to question any notary who doesn't know how to date her own certs. Yikes.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/14/10 5:56pm
Msg #331749

I don't think the notary was questioning the date to put on the certificate. Instructing her on the date for the certificate was probably just an " after-thought"
Someone questions the date of the docs, and SS says not to worry just date the certificate for the day of the signing/notarization.

I would worry about a notary who didn't know how to date his/her certificate - although some of the questions we have seen on here over the years, it wouldn't surprise me

Reply by MikeC/NY on 4/14/10 6:00pm
Msg #331751

How can there be "borrowers" and a bank involved if this is a cash purchase??

The date on the documents just reflects the date the transaction takes effect - unless the document preparer indicates otherwise, it doesn't generally matter when they are signed. There is nothing illegal about signing and notarizing a document that is dated with a future date, as long as the notarization date is accurate. It's the notarization date that matters, not the document date.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/14/10 6:16pm
Msg #331755

I agree with the others

While some might have read a bit too much into your question, it seems to me to be another case of a misguided - perhaps inexperienced - notary who is a little confused. I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. If the signing is happening today, it should go without saying that the certificate date should be today's date. I know of no state law that addresses a document date and also I believe that it should not be the notary's concern.

There's a great deal of discussion here and elsewhere about it being illegal to "backdate" a document and how wrong that is. We have seen posts from many who are confused about what backdating means and, as a result, become concerned about the document date. I've gotten a fair amount of business from people who have turned down work they thought they shouldn't do, so maybe I shouldn't be saying this...

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/14/10 6:27pm
Msg #331758

Warranty deed Vs Deed of Trust.

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/14/10 7:16pm
Msg #331775

James, you are the cause of all this confusion!

Heeheeheeheeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/14/10 7:27pm
Msg #331780

Re: Yes - Help!! n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/14/10 6:27pm
Msg #331759

Just curious about something....if you're in KY and the clients [borrowers] are in KY, how are Cal notaries of assistance (to your question, if the Cal means California)?

In CA, title insurance companies insure title, so we do not use warranty deeds here. Doc dates can be anything the lender wants. The day we notarize signatures is the date reflected on the certificates, though I must say I notarized a loan package with future dates. It was not a split signing. I brought this future date to the powers that be and was instructed to commence with the signing. It was kicked back.....I got the re-sign so I made a nice profit on those two signings.

It may or may not get kicked back. The day on the certs is the day the clients appear before you, which can only be today (today would be whenever someone reads this).

Reply by Charles_Ca on 4/14/10 6:33pm
Msg #331762

Actually that is not correct. A trust deed is a security

instrument. A Grant Deed grants property and all grant deeds have an implied warranty under California Law. The only deed without an implied warranty is the Quit Claim deed (Quick Claim for those who are out of the loop) since there is no warranty that the quitter has anything to grant!

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/14/10 6:43pm
Msg #331764

Re: Actually that is not correct. A trust deed is a security

Are they handled any differently with respect to the date issue mentioned by Gina? Maybe "The Commissioner of Deeds" can share some light on the subject. Where is he?

Reply by Charles_Ca on 4/14/10 7:06pm
Msg #331769

I wouldn't presume to answer for the Commissioner but

as far as notarization. they are all handled the same in CA, your mileage may vary!

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/14/10 7:05pm
Msg #331768

Re: Actually that is not correct. A trust deed is a security

Were you responding to me, Charles? If so, grant deed warrants defects only while the grantor owned the property. Warranty deed warrants defects before or during the grantor's ownership.

Grant deeds do not insure title to the property. The implied warranty from a grant deed is that the grantor has not previously conveyed title to anyone else and that grantor has not caused or allowed any encumbrances other than what the deed already discloses, as stated above, warrants defects only while the grantor owned the property.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 4/14/10 7:07pm
Msg #331770

Yes I was, please re-read the statement you made in

the post to which I was referring . Your prior statement has nothing to do with the statement you just made.

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/14/10 7:12pm
Msg #331772

Re: Yes I was, please re-read the statement you made in

<<Yes I was, please re-read the statement you made in the post to which I was referring . Your prior statement has nothing to do with the statement you just made.>>>

Reread my post. Yes, it most certainly does. I said nothing about trust deeds or security for a loan. I spoke about insured title to property and warranty deeds and why we don't use them in CA.

You misread my post. I was clear in both posts and the theme matches.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 4/14/10 7:13pm
Msg #331773

Actually It seems I was responding to two posts at once

How's that for multi-tasking? The trust deed v warranty deed was Mr. Notarysigner, title does insure the title, that's what I get for reading between work!

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/14/10 7:15pm
Msg #331774

Re: Actually It seems I was responding to two posts at once

<smile!> I do that too!!

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/14/10 7:09pm
Msg #331771

P.S.

<<<Actually that is not correct. A trust deed is a security instrument.>>>


I said nothing about trust deeds. I spoke of title insurance and warranty deeds.

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/14/10 7:16pm
Msg #331776

Re: P.S.

were am I?

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/14/10 7:24pm
Msg #331777

Re: P.S.

Anybody want to know anything about Digital Transmission or Binary, Octal computer math??

Reply by jba/fl on 4/14/10 7:50pm
Msg #331784

Of course, we all do. n/m

Reply by GinaKY on 4/14/10 7:25pm
Msg #331778

Re: P.S.

sorry....for the confusion..... not a borrower.... just a buyer and seller in a cash deal. Title company is in FLA but the transaction took place in CAL. The notary spoke the NNA and they advised her not to do the signing because the dates on the docs were "future" dates.
I spoke to the California SOS - Notary Department....(with the notary on 3-way) they told the notary the only thing that mattered was that she verified the ID's and that she notarized the Warranty Deed for the date that the signer executed the document. And that the dates on the documents were irrelevant to the notary. (except the acknowledgement date).
The Cal SOS agent also told the notary that the NNA was NOT the "governing body" over notaries, but they are a good resource for information, but that they are not always 100% correct.
Thank you so much for all of your help. We needed a notary and this one bailed out at the last minute, and we were trying to get her clarification so she would know in the future.

Thanks again to all the knowledgeable notaries on NR!

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/14/10 7:30pm
Msg #331781

Re: P.S.

Great post Gina....you found the correct answer while we were all...reading each other's post. Go Gina, Go Gina!!!!!

Reply by MW/VA on 4/14/10 7:41pm
Msg #331782

Glad you got your question answered by going directly to the

SOS. I'm checking about what they said abut the NNA "NOT the governing body over notaries".....LOL. Some of us have learned over time that they are often wrong in the info they provide.
IME the date of docs is often in advance. The only thing I need to be concerned with is the date of my notarization. SOS gave you good advice.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 4/14/10 10:37pm
Msg #331805

That just shows how valuable the NNA is...

It really boils down to basic CA notary law. CA notaries are NOT concerned with the content of a document, and that includes any dates written on it. While it's helpful to note or journal them... it doesn't really matter at all.

What matters is that the notary's date on his/her cert is the day the signer(s) appeared. That's it. It doesn't matter what type of document it is... including loans docs. As far a the notary cert goes... it's completely legit.

Now... will lenders accept it? Who knows? Some might, others apparently don't - but that's not the notary's problem.

I think this notary over complicated things... while it's helpful to make a call and say, "Hey, my cert will be dated the 14th... but the docs say the 16th, is the lender bothered by that?" ...

It's different to call and say, "It's illegal for me to do that..."

It's illegal to backdate or postdate her cert according to the day itself, not the documents being signed.

I'm glad she had the forethought to call the SOS on that. The NNA is wrong... again. Shocker.

Reply by Joan_OH on 4/15/10 12:34am
Msg #331818

Sounds like an REO purchase

The buyer does not sign the deed - the seller (bank) does. You were probably sent a copy of the Special or Limited Warranty deed to verify with the buyers that vesting is correct but I highly doubt it is for the buyers to sign (unless they REALLY do things different in CA or KY).

Joan-OH