Posted by Lita on 4/10/10 3:24pm
Msg #331158
Just wondering.....
Now that lenders are giving the loan pkg to the borrower and having them get it notarized, wondering what the general thought is as far as fees. I've only done two over the last several months, I charged per notarization, one was $160 and the other $180. I was there at least a hour both times. However at the time I was just looking at it as a individual notarization, now I am giving it more thought. What are your thoughts, should we be giving a set fee up front for the pkg, or ask how many notarized pages, or perhaps ask the number then work with them ??? Want to be in line with the general thought before I started receiving them more often.
| Reply by Linda Juenger on 4/10/10 3:41pm
Msg #331159
I for one would go broke by charging by notarization. In IL we can only charge $1.
| Reply by Ilene C. Seidel on 4/10/10 3:50pm
Msg #331161
Ditto here, Maryland is $2.00. I usually decline notary work it doesn't pay me to get in the car.
I'll only go if there is a senior that is unable to travel, just the right thing to do.
| Reply by BossLadyMD on 4/10/10 4:08pm
Msg #331168
and we may only charge a whopping $5 for travel in maryland. i also refer general notary work out unless its for seniors, disabled, etc.
| Reply by Lita on 4/10/10 4:00pm
Msg #331164
For States who can charge $10 per sig
Ok so then my questions is to CA notaries and any other state that can charge $10 per signature. What would/are you going to do?
| Reply by BossLadyMD on 4/10/10 4:14pm
Msg #331170
$10 per sig & the travel fee like your state mandates
believe me, the borrower requested the loan package from the lender for a very good reason!and i have never had a borrower in maryland call me with the loan package (unless it was an O/D that the lender sent to both of us)
| Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 4/10/10 4:05pm
Msg #331166
When I lived in CA, I once had a trust signing with multiple signers. There were 32 sigs in all. So I charged $320 and no travel fee. HOWEVER, this fee was paid for out of a trust. There was no fee resistance at all. I am not sure if this would fly these days, especially not here in AZ. However, it took 2 hours.
| Reply by Yoli/CA on 4/10/10 4:49pm
Msg #331175
It depends on what my function there is. Ask the borrower(s) if you're there as a notary or as a loan signing agent.
Do they understand their docs or will you have to explain them (I don't mean the terms of the loan but rather presenting the Note, DOT, NRTC, etc. and help them find the terms of the loan). If I'm presenting the docs and explaining their function, then I charge for the signing, which includes travel and excludes printing.
If I'm there only to notarize, then I charge my travel fee plus the $10 per notarized signature.
| Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/10/10 4:35pm
Msg #331173
Borrowers are usually just coming to you for "notary work" and not signing agent work.
I do quite a few packages where borrowers have received their package from the lender and told to find a notary.
I just charge them my regular notary fees - usually give a discount for multiple notarizations in a package. But I do not go over the package with them, they are not coming for "loan signing" services.
| Reply by BossLadyMD on 4/10/10 4:45pm
Msg #331174
i'm thinking the exact same thing sylvia..
and the lender should not expect the 'notary' to go over the loan package.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 4/10/10 4:54pm
Msg #331177
Even though the borrower is hiring me and I'm only notarizing signatures - no SA presentation - for two signers, I would charge a package price - $150 for a single refi and $175 for a reverse mortgage. Using your example of the 18 notarizations, I would write up the receipt to show 18 signatures total $180, travel fee $0, discount $30, total $150.
People like deals and seeing a discount on the receipt makes them smile. If there are more than two signers, I would only charge for six of the nine notarizations per additional person - that would be a 1/3 discount per person.
Even for general notary work, I don't charge a travel fee when there are more than ten notarizations, within a certain driving distance.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 4/10/10 7:01pm
Msg #331186
If you are being called to do notary work
Why not charge like you are and just act as a general notary.
Frankly, I don't think that notaries should act as a signing agent unless hired by a title company/ss/lender.
If you put on your signing agent hat in such situations you are taking a lot of risk on yourself because you don't have the title company or lender's support, benefit of their business insurance, etc. You don't have a number to call if there are questions, etc. If an issue comes up later and you act as a signing agent the entire burden of liability falls on you, the notary signing agent acting all on your own.
Tell the signer to pull out all the documents that need to be notarized and go to work. Collect your money and move on.
| Reply by desktopfull on 4/10/10 7:03pm
Msg #331187
Great advice Brenda! n/m
| Reply by John/CT on 4/10/10 7:06pm
Msg #331188
Re: Just a Notary vs Signing Agent
As a rule, I do not go out to perform "just a notary" work when called @ $5 a pop and $0.35 a mile, per current Connecticut rates. If the caller has a loan package, I charge my "regular" NSA fee for o'nite dox ... sometimes less if they live nearby ... and I provide my "regular" NSA service to them. Have rarely gotten any pushback on this when I explain what I do for my fee.
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 4/11/10 12:29am
Msg #331204
Adding to the wealth of wisdom above, I thought long and
hard about what to use the 5 lines on my new car 'magnets' - to differentiate between the two different, but related functions. If it helps anyone, this is what I came up with:
Mobile Notary Public
General Notarial &
ReFi, Reverse Mtg, Purchase
email
phone
When I get my signs, I'm going to have to treat my briefcase like a purse, which should work out because I haven't carried a purse in years. 
I ditto John's business model on this issue. Borrowers have been put through so many wringers for so long, I believe they will prefer experience over cost and the risk of *another* screw-up in their long trek for service.
Good question!
| Reply by BrendaTx on 4/11/10 6:44am
Msg #331209
I humbly disagree with Susan Fischer and John/CT.
*Have rarely gotten any pushback on this when I explain what I do for my fee. *
I humbly disagree with Susan and John/CT. I feel concerned about offering "NSA" work (the A meaning "agent" when we are not working as an *agent* for an entity authorized to hire notaries to present documents..
I do not think that notaries have the legal ability to act as a signing agent and present documents where there is no hiring entity which has the authority to hire notaries as "agents".
I think the notary can only ask for the notarized documents to be presented and then notarize appropriately, and charge appropriately by state law.
When members of the public pay us for certain things we do we infer that we take liability for the service they have paid us for. I think that will get notaries in trouble in the future when a loan goes awry. JMHO
| Reply by BrendaTx on 4/11/10 12:02pm
Msg #331223
Whoa boy, I butchered that post...let me try again.
There's no "signing agent" where there's no authorized agency to be representing. Without the lender/title company to be an agent of, we are simply notaries with that kind of experience.
If I go to work contractually for a veterinarians, for instance, filling in at their office when they need a temp, I will learn an awful lot about doctoring animals, but I cannot take that doctoring knowledge on the road and charge for it. I go back to being just me, with a lot of knowledge that I can use on my own pets.
Notaries should recognize the difference between being a notary and being a notary contracted by entities to work on their behalf with a client. Loan packages without a lender/title company behind me become a stack of documents that the client pulls out certain ones from for me to notarize.
| Reply by Charles_Ca on 4/11/10 1:00pm
Msg #331225
Excellent points Brenda! Ostensible Agency will only
bite the agent in the butt! Any one who is claimimng agency unilaterally is taking on liabiility they may not be prepared to survive.
No disclaimer, I am licensed to discuss agency in accordance with California Real Estate Law!
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 4/11/10 3:40pm
Msg #331246
I'm not claiming to be an 'agent' in my signage - and I
don't purport to know anything about a client's loan/purchase docs. I can *describe* a doc, but not *explain* a doc. I don't discuss terms or conditions, figures, or anything else about the products. I know where sigs go, and my notarial duties.
I'm not representing any agency, and don't claim to be authorized, or in any way connected to the doc originators. The most I could say to a borrower who hired me and asked a question is, "I'd be happy to wait while you call your loan officer to answer that."
Travel is a big part of our business - it's the nature of remote closings, and is compensable.
While I understand your point, I think that, at least for me, it's important to help borrowers through an arduous process, within the law and with the strongest ethos.
JMHO, of course.
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 4/11/10 5:45pm
Msg #331259
I agree with Brenda and Charles
Holding yourself out to be a "Notary Signing Agent" when there is no agency relationship established may open you up to some nasty legal repercussions if the deal goes south. If you are an "agent", you must be working in someone's interest. It's usually the person who hires you, and in a situation where the borrower comes to you, you could only be working for the borrower.
I think if you're going to work directly with borrowers, you need to drop the whole NSA thing and find something else to call what it is you do. Maybe "Notary Public with loan documentation experience". OK, that's a little unwieldy.. maybe "Loan Documentation Specialist"? No, that would abbreviate to LDS, and then they'd think you were a Mormon...
Whatever... I think it's a really bad idea to suggest in any way, shape or form that you are acting as an "agent" when working directly with borrowers. I also think it's a bad idea to charge them more for your experience with loan docs, because that might imply you know more about the loan than you actually do - and guess who will be #1 on the list of defendants if there are problems with the loan? Better to just notarize what needs to be notarized, collect your fee, and go home; don't take on more responsibility than you can afford.
And to whoever said that they've been doing this without a problem or push-back - past history is no guarantee of future performance. That first problem you run into will probably be a major one...
| Reply by BrendaTx on 4/11/10 6:25pm
Msg #331268
Mike, that was my point...said badly...
You said it well:
*I also think it's a bad idea to charge them more for your experience with loan docs, because that might imply you know more about the loan than you actually do - and guess who will be #1 on the list of defendants if there are problems with the loan? Better to just notarize what needs to be notarized, collect your fee, and go home; don't take on more responsibility than you can afford.*
If you up-charge for a service, then there is a certain expectation that you should have some kind of special knowledge...and since we are talking about legal documents, here in Texas that would be considered UPL because of the "charging" for it.
My best advice to notaries 'cross the US under $6 a notarization? Start trying to get your notary fees raised to an amount that will be worthwhile for a mobile notary appointment. At $6 a pop in Texas, I can easily see with no liability, no preparation, no printing...just driving across town? Heck yes. $60 (10 x $6) + a reasonable travel fee to be much easier money than $125 for printing, blah, blah and blah...signing, faxing, dropping, etc.
| Reply by MikeC/NY on 4/11/10 11:33pm
Msg #331299
Re: Mike, that was my point...said badly...
Wow, you guys get $6 a pop? Here we get $2 for each signature - lobbying for more is useless, because the morons running our state government can't even figure out who's supposed to be in charge...
For mobile notary work, I charge a travel fee ($25 if local, more if it's outside of my immediate area), plus the state mandated $2/signature. I've done several of these mail-away loans where the borrower contacts me, and for all of them it was the same deal - just show me the pages that require a notarization, I don't even want to know about the rest of it. I have not had one of them balk at the travel fee, it's really quick to do, and I get paid before I leave the table... It's not big bucks, but it's also not a lot of aggravation.
I can't imagine ever saying "If you will pay me $XXX, I'll go over all these documents with you." They called me to notarize; explaining the loan documents to them would be above my pay grade and expose me to a lot of liability.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 4/12/10 6:23am
Msg #331305
Keyword: Liability
*and expose me to a lot of liability. *
I think you and I understand that word liability better because of our backgrounds.
That's what I don't want more of, and if I charge for a service over and above the travel and notary public acts I fear that it starts the liability motor.
======
"I paid the notary $XX extra to go over the documents with me and they never pointed out or explained XXXXxxxxxxxxx to me." (Whether the notary did or did not has little relevance by this time.)
"What? The notary charged you more than the notary fee to go over the documents with you?"
"Yes, I was glad to pay them $xx extra because they said they had loan document experience and offered that experience as a premium service rather than just notarizing the documents. I wanted to be sure to understand what I was signing."
"Was this notary a lawyer?"
"No."
"And, they charged more because they had loan document *experience* but they weren't a lawyer?"
"Yes."
=======
Well...you see where this goes from there. Several outcomes are possible.
Those who will, will, and those who fear liability won't.
| Reply by Moneyman/TX on 4/11/10 8:35pm
Msg #331283
LOL Mike "abbreviate to LDS" might get more biz with that n/m
| Reply by ReneeK_MI on 4/11/10 3:19pm
Msg #331244
Very interesting points, Brenda - but also consider ...
...the (IMO) possibility of one day having an even greater proportion of borrower-direct hires, and the potential for 'consumer-facing' marketing.
Perhaps there's a consideration to be pondered of the commonly-known-as "NSA" acting directly on behalf of the consumer, as their (dare I say) 'signing agent'?
Grant you, when the phrase was coined there may not have been enough thought put into those pesky unintended consequences - and while I do more often refer to myself as an "independent closer" because that's just the local jargon used inside the industry, the consumer is pretty much a blank slate ...so to speak.
The point being - I'm thinking ahead and have been for some time, about the potential for consumer-facing marketing, which I happen to think would be GREAT. I would much prefer that they have a clear choice between a lay-person notary public, and an industry-experienced Independent loan closer. Were they to be directed to the standard NSA listings, they would find listings for ....Notary Signing Agents.
If this field does turn more consumer-facing, I don't think the consumer is fairly served by removing the expertise specific TO real estate and/or mortgage transactions from the table and suddenly morphing into an effectively bound/gagged notary public.
As an "agent" of the consumer, I would indeed rely upon my own protective measures - but truly, I do feel that I am not all that protected by any other entity that I act as an agent of. THEY protect themselves far more than they protect me.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 4/11/10 4:29pm
Msg #331250
Speaking from a Texas perspective as always...
I am very conscious of the long arm of the State Bar of Texas.
I believe the borrower/consumer face is near, too.
It is something of concern to me.
We all know that the tc/lender protects themselves and not us, but it is the perception of the courtroom that concerns me in the situation where the notary acts as a "signing whatever" and a deal goes sour and the notary is somehow brought into the mix. Will any helpful word or good "presentation" of the documents provided by the notary work against them? We all mean well. We all know our business, but those concerns remain.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 4/11/10 5:42pm
Msg #331258
Renee' on 2nd thought, wish a lawyer would respond...
It would be nice to know their perspective. Perhaps if they don't want to go public they can PM me.
Because of all you said, I'd like to get my thinking on this settled for once and for all. If I'm seeing it wrong, I would like to know that asap. Been known to get a skewed view or two here and there!
However, I just can't put it together so that I can logically conclude that a notary with experience in handling real estate and loan documents can carry that experience to consumers and charge a premium for it over and above the amount of the cost of the notary work and travel when there is not a loan authority involved. It feels wrong to me. Maybe a paralegal...maybe a Louisiana notary. But, since there's no true certification or licensing for a signing agent's work, I can't see how we can get by with it.
Believe me, I want to see it differently!!!!!
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/12/10 2:39am
Msg #331302
Agree w/ Renee. What about "Signing Facilitator"??
Brenda, I'd also be very interested in any attorney perspective. I think Renee has some very valid points, though. I've been chewing on this for a while, too, and it seems to me that there should be some kind of middle ground. Most of us who have been doing this for a while have seen too many examples of how easily - and how many different ways - a borrower can mess up a loan package to not believe that we can offer a meaningful value-added service at a signing without crossing the line into interpreting or advising or being guilty of UPL.
When a borrower calls me directly with a loan package to be signed, I generally give them a choice of having me just notarize at the per-signature rate (or whatever we negotiate) vs. going through the whole package with them for a flat rate. (The term "Signing Agent" doesn't need to be mentioned at all.) Depending on the number of notarizations in the pkg, they may be better off with the latter (at least here in CA). I've had several takers for that who were very happy to pay the full flat rate and appreciative of the service, feeling more confident about what they were sending back. Others just want the notary work done.
There is also the convenience factor. How many times do we hear thanks from people for making it so easy for them? I'm still hearing that a lot, often with comments that they didn't know there was such a thing as a mobile notary (or something similar). I also hear a lot of comments from people who say they hate paper work and "I could never do what you do."
What if we called ourselves something like "Signing Facilitators"? I think that gets closer than anything else I can think of to accurately describing our function. I don't know if I'm totally sold on it myself, but I can't think of anything better, so far. I'd be interested in any other thoughts or suggestions.
| Reply by Susan Fischer on 4/12/10 11:53am
Msg #331334
Re: Agree w/ Renee. What about "Signing Facilitator"??
Well put. Indeed, most folks are wide-eyed when I first pull out the huge stack of paper - and by the time we're through? Hey, that wasn't so bad - thanks for knowing what we're doing.
'Facilitator' works for me. So much better than 'helper-outer.' >>grin<< 'Remote closer' is another term out there - but we don't actually "close" the loan, either.
The problematic word does seem to be 'agent' since it is so charged with legal consequences.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/12/10 2:42pm
Msg #331366
Re: Agree w/ Renee. What about "Signing Facilitator"??
I agree that the "agency" word seems to be at the center of the issue. What I like about "Facilitator" is that it also implies a limitation on what we are doing, i.e. getting the documents signed in the proper fashion and referring content questions to the appropriate parties.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 4/11/10 3:07am
Msg #331207
"...should we be giving a set fee up front for the pkg, or ask how many notarized pages, or perhaps ask the number then work with them ??? Want to be in line with the general thought before I started receiving them more often."
I'm surprised that no one else mentioned this, but what "we" should all be doing is coming up with our own strategies to decide how to price in those kinds of situations. Otherwise, we could get ourselves into trouble by being accused of price-fixing. Several people on this board have already been contacted by federal authorities investigating this issue for our field, so it's something we need to be careful about.
You were given some good ideas here -- and this is a topic that has been discussed before, so you might also find a search helpful -- but we need to be very careful about how these types of discussions are worded and make it very clear that we each set our own pricing.
| Reply by Notarysigner on 4/11/10 10:48am
Msg #331214
Very good point!
| Reply by MW/VA on 4/11/10 11:34am
Msg #331221
Wow! Were people actually willing to pay you $160/$180? I'm sure they pay per notarization if they show up at a place like UPS store. I've only been called for a few of those. I charged $50.
as a flat fee, which I thought was fair. After all, I didn't print anything, explain anything, or be responsible for shipping the package.
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