Posted by pat/WA on 4/30/10 9:47am
Msg #334285

State of Washington

I just recieved a notice instructing me to have a non-borrowing spouse not vested on Title sign the DOT even if his/her name is not on the documents.
Am I loosing my mind? I swear I have never been told this before

Reply by 101livescan on 4/30/10 10:16am
Msg #334294

Yes, I've seen this before. Also, there is sometimes an Affidavit of Non-Borrowing Spouse in the package, but not always.

Reply by Reverse Mortgage of America - Jessica on 4/30/10 10:38am
Msg #334298

Re: State of Washington...the fidelity title guide

indicates that in WA the non-titled spouse of homestead property must sign the security instrument. as long as the spouse lives in the home, they are required to sign the security instrument.
i would verify with the lender, but typically they are also requried to sign the TIL and RTC, too. both documents affect the RTC. i just experienced an instance (in another state) where the non-borrowering spouse needed to sign the TIL, RTC and DOT and i gave instructions to the notary to have these signed. all were returned signed except the TIL! awesome...3 day RTC had to start over!

Reply by Jessica Ward on 4/30/10 12:03pm
Msg #334318

Re: State of Washington...the fidelity title guide

I too have always had non-borrowing spouse sign the legals for WA documents. A non-borrowing spouse in WA purchasing a property in AZ though seems different. When in doubt, ask the client.

A few times I've seen a borrower wanting to keep a property in their separate estate. In that case, we also did a quit claim deed, with the non-borrowing spouse signing a quit claim deed which took them off the title to the property.

I've still never really understood why people do this--I'm of the opinion that if you're not sharing your property with your spouse, it doesn't make any sense to stay married to him/her, but alas, I keep my opinions to myself (except here among friends of course) ;-)

Reply by pat/WA on 4/30/10 12:08pm
Msg #334319

Re: State of Washington...the fidelity title guide

The DOT is vested as the sole and seperate property of the owner. I am assuming this is because it was acquired before the marriage. The signature page does not have the spouse's name on it, but I am told that she is to sign anyway.
Does she sign the DOT, RTC, and TIL?

Reply by PAW on 4/30/10 12:14pm
Msg #334323

Re: State of Washington...the fidelity title guide

IMO, yes. The following is an excerpt from the Stewart Underwriters Manual concerning spousal rights in WA:

-- Rights of Spouses and Domestic Partners --

Presumption of Community Property.

Washington is a community property state. A deed to a married person creates a strong presumption that the property is held as community property. RCW 26.16.030. This is the case even if the deed only names one of the spouses as the grantee. The presumption that property acquired by a married person during marriage is community property does not apply if the property was (a) acquired by inheritance; (b) acquired by gift, (c) acquired using separate funds of the grantee or (d) there is a recorded agreement between the parties (prenuptial agreement, settlement agreement, etc.) specifically providing that this property is separate property. Title companies are reluctant to rely on (b) and (c) above since claims that the property was acquired by gift or using separate funds are often only supported by self-serving affidavits from the parties. Therefore, title companies frequently require a quitclaim deed from the non-titled spouse when property is claimed to be the separate property of the titled spouse due to a gift or the use of separate funds.

Signature of Spouse Usually Required Even if Separate Property.

Even if property is the separate property of one spouse, and even if there is a recent deed from one spouse to the other, if the property is arguably the couple's homestead, the non-titled spouse must execute any deed, deed of trust or other conveyance of the property. This is because homestead property must be conveyed or encumbered by both spouses. RCW 6.13.060. Since Washington provides for an "automatic" homestead (the law does not require the recording of a homestead declaration), determining whether property is the homestead of the couple can sometimes be difficult. If they claim that the subject property is not their homestead, if the property is residential title companies will often require them to record a declaration of homestead on another property to clarify that the subject property is not their homestead. If the spouse has no interest in the property but is required to sign due to their homestead interest, a disclaimer is often added above their signature indicating that they are executing the document solely for the purpose of conveying their homestead interest.

Spouses Must Execute Same Document.

Conveyances or encumbrances of community real property must be executed and acknowledged by both spouses. Both spouses must sign the same document. For example, the husband cannot sign one deed to the grantee and the wife sign another to the same grantee. RCW 26.16.030.

Reply by pat/WA on 4/30/10 12:31pm
Msg #334327

Re: State of Washington...the fidelity title guide

Thanks

I always assumed that when the DOT said sole and seperate property that the owner had acquired the property before marriage

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/30/10 12:36pm
Msg #334330

Re: State of Washington...the fidelity title guide

Very useful info PAW, thanks. I looked up a couple of Title Co guides for California, nothing surprising but at-least now I have a reference guide for borrowers wanting to know. Thanks again.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/30/10 12:59pm
Msg #334334

NO YOU DON'T!!

"at-least now I have a reference guide for borrowers wanting to know"

No you don't James - it's not your part to advise them of this - let their LO or title company, or even their attorney, explain it to them....this goes far beyond your scope as a signing agent.

My VERY strong but humble opinion..

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/30/10 12:59pm
Msg #334336

Not to mention the citation is for Washington... n/m

Reply by PAW on 4/30/10 1:02pm
Msg #334337

Exactly - what Linda said! n/m

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/30/10 1:05pm
Msg #334339

Re: NO YOU DON'T!!

Linda....are so saying I can't tell them about their Title Co. website??

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/30/10 1:06pm
Msg #334340

Re:meant to say "are you saying" ? If they info? n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/30/10 1:07pm
Msg #334341

Paul did not cite THEIR title company website

He cited Stewart Title Underwriting Manual...and no, I would not cite that - refer them to their loan officer, their title company OR their own attorney...

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/30/10 1:16pm
Msg #334345

Re: Paul did not cite THEIR title company website

Okay. If a borrower (and they have) asked me if it is a good interest rate, I refer them to their LO. If they asked me if it's a good neighborhood, I tell them there are resources avail to them on the Internet. If they ask me how can they find a "guide" about anything related to their loan Docs, I'm suppose to say, "Contact your TC or LO" only? BTW I really do appreciate what you're telling me so I ain't gettin mad!! LOL

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/30/10 1:28pm
Msg #334348

In a word...yes...

But I suppose you can refer them to the internet for that too...but yes, I would refer them to the LO or the title company for any explanation about their loan docs.

Personally, if they have questions about their loan terms, I refer them to their LO; if about the loan docs I try to get an answer for them from title or refer them to an attorney of their choosing to review the docs, especialy if it's questions on "if I take title like this how does it affect me" ...those are the only referrals I make - technically the title company can't really *advise* them either, especially if it's a question of HOW they should take title (or change the vesting) - they don't work for the borrowers, they work for the lender.

All I'm saying is there's no way you should refer YOUR signers to a site that has absolutely nothing to do with their loan (i.e. Stewart Underwriting Manual).

MHO

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/30/10 1:53pm
Msg #334350

Re:O K Understood...yes...

Questions about their loan Docs....LO or TC..always, understood. All those "W' questions except for "where". Understood. However, If I cannot assist someone/borrower in finding information on their own to help them understand, then I'm in trouble. The difference between single male, single female and single person for example. I show them how to find the definition so they can asked the LO/TC and intelligent question about how they where listed as..blah, blah, blah. I guess I must be 100% wrong on this one. But thanks for letting me know that, honestly.

Reply by PAW on 4/30/10 2:14pm
Msg #334353

Re: Re:O K Understood...yes...

Different title companies use different underwriters which have different rules and provide information differently. I offered what I found in a manual from Stewart Underwriting, but I would never quote it to a borrower, but direct the borrower to their title closer for answers. Otherwise, it may be misconstrued as UPL.

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/30/10 2:26pm
Msg #334358

Re: Re:O K Understood...yes...

Understood, I should put more understanding into my post/comments so as to not add so much confusion. I never attempt to quote any passages to anything I didn't write.

A lot of borrowers are confused and distrustful. If a borrower happens to be disappointed in the loan process because of whoever/whatever misleads them, that person is going to be the last person they are willing to contact. Understood; An appeal for help could led to catastrophic consequences.

Reply by BobbiCT on 4/30/10 1:35pm
Msg #334349

Best to keep mum on some subjects ...

PERSONAL OPINION that I am sharing:

What I say to many paralegal students, "You will learn a lot about the law. The difficult part is knowing what NOT to tell your clients or opposing party."

I work with attorneys who write title insurance with many different companies. The undewriting guidelines vary ... and may be diffent from both the Private Agent Only manual, the Public web site and, when asked, what the in-house counsel at the title company will opine. Remember, the title company manual is a Guide to what the title company wants its agents to follow in order to INSURE MARKETABLE TITLE when purchasing an owner's or lender's policy from that Specific Title Company. It is always GOOD to be informed, but a little information can go a long way ... often the wrong way.

When borrower have a question about their loan documents, I reply, "Although the basic documents are forms. Each loan is specific to each borrower. If you have any questions about your documents, talk with your loan officer or, during your 3-day recission period, ask an attorney that you know." If the borrowers get PO'd at the lender, I don't want this to come back at me: "We went through with the loan because when we questioned this paragraph the signing agent told me to look up what that meant on the Stewart Title Company web site. We looked it up and it seemed OK to us .... Oh, we didn't know First American Title Insurance isn't the same ... Oh, we didn't know it was only in connection with the issuance of an Expanded Owners Policy and what we paid for was a Standard Lender's Policy."

Sometimes well meaning intentions don't turn out well. Sometimes they do. Why risk your career, assets and reputation on giving "advice," when it is just as well (if not better) if you don't. What if the borrower doesn't like (aka understand) what they read on the web site, panics and rescinds "because the signing agent referred us to ..." If the Loan Officer refers them to a web site, that's OK with me

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/30/10 1:57pm
Msg #334351

Re: Best to keep mum on some subjects ...

That makes sense to me Bobbi, Thanks....confirms, what others were saying, not a good choice. Wait until I tell my family I was wrong today! LOL

Reply by John/CT on 4/30/10 2:16pm
Msg #334355

I know the feeling, James ...

like, "I have my faults, but being wrong isn't one of them", until someone (usually my wife) comes along and proves me otherwise.

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/30/10 2:27pm
Msg #334359

Re: I know the feeling, James ...

"everything is the same except when it's different", who said that?

Reply by PAW on 4/30/10 2:15pm
Msg #334354

Very well said, Bobbi. n/m

Reply by Jessica Ward on 4/30/10 1:10pm
Msg #334344

Re: State of Washington...the fidelity title guide

when in doubt, call the client.

Reply by Ocean Pacific Notary Services, Inc. on 4/30/10 1:09pm
Msg #334343

Pat - WA is a homestead state. Title co request is correct. non-vested spouse only needs to sign DOT/RIDERS. But you really should check with title co on TIL/NORTC as these docs are for a non-bor spouse which appears to not be the case.

WA - TRUE comm property state and when prop is vested as SOLE/SEP, Homestead law will apply. Again, confirm that with title.

Reply by pat/WA on 4/30/10 6:47pm
Msg #334401

As it turned out the refi was an investment property and not a principal residence. Therefore, title advised the borrower that his wife did not have to sign.
An interesting note is that his wife had signed a quit claim deed transfering the title to him as his sole property in 1994.

Reply by Notarysigner on 4/30/10 2:04pm
Msg #334352

Re: State of Washington Sorry pat for highjacking ur thread. n/m