Posted by Carol Graff on 4/2/10 11:55pm
Msg #330176

notary journal

I called NNA last week to ask them if California had a requirement that we had to use one line for each item notarized and a signature for each one also. They said that "yes" it was a CA requirement. I did this for a loan signing the other day with 16 signatures total and what a time consuming pain this was. I rec'd the new 2010 Notary handbook and do not see that is a requirement explicitly. Can anyone please clarify this for me?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 4/3/10 1:34am
Msg #330178

Yup, it's really always been that way, but nobody really paid attention. Pages 9-10 of the current handbook go over this... but it isn't as explicit as it could be. You have to really read Gov't code 8206 to fully grasp it.

The law says that our journals must be sequential. That means each act in the order it was performed. Then it goes on to describe what information should be recorded for each act. That's the key, really -- that the info is recorded for each sequential act.

Here's why: Let's say you were asked to give a copy of a specific journal entry for one of those 16 entries. Remember, the law states that requests for lines item copies must specify the signer, type of document, etc. -- which means you would only copy the one entry specific to that document and signer. Let's say that document fell in the middle of those 16, and you used ditto marks and a diagonal. Now you've got a problem because your journal entry does not contain all of the required information for that act.

Harry posted a link to the notes from the October 09 Education Vendors meeting where this was clarified.


See Msg #322514 or : http://www.notaryrotary.com/library/10-23-09-vendors-meeting-minutes-final.pdf

Specifically the part that matters:

"Q, When multiple notarial acts are performed, is it acceptable for a diagonal line to be drawn
from the first document to the last document in the notary public journal with a single signature
covering all transactions? In addition, can ditto (“) marks be used in the journal?

A. Government Code section 8206 requires that the notary public's journal include all the
information for "each official act." Therefore, each act would include the date, time, type of
each official act, character of the instrument, signature, type of identification, fee, and
thumbprint (if applicable) on a separate line for each act."

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 4/3/10 1:39am
Msg #330179

I occasionally sign at a big-name title company when they get really busy and have observed many times how their escrow notaries do this: They write "loan docs" in the journal to cover everything. That's it!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 4/3/10 2:59am
Msg #330180

Yup, I've seen that, too. They're 100% wrong, and I've been the big mouth hall monitor that I am and I always pointed it out. I was at one office once where all the notaries used the SAME journal. They actually handed me the journal and said, "Here, use this one instead. We have to use this one for all loans closed in the office."

I got some really dirty looks when I started laughing at them.

I really don't know how they managed to pass the exam.

Reply by Lee/AR on 4/3/10 3:35am
Msg #330182

Sure am glad I don't live in CA! n/m

Reply by RJE/MI on 4/3/10 8:20am
Msg #330188

MI does mot require we keep

A journal but they do require we keep a record of all notarizations. So I use a the NotRot Journal. When I said that to explain why I needed her to sign my journal she said, "really I'm not required to do that.".

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 4/4/10 9:54am
Msg #330294

MI does not require journal or record ...

Although it's a darn fine idea & certainly best practice, neither are required here.

Reply by Robert/FL on 4/3/10 8:23am
Msg #330189

I'm in FL and do separate entry for each document

Yes, it can be time consuming and a pain... at the law firm I work at we do a lot of guardian ad litems on foreclosure actions, requiring the attorney to sign 10 affidavits at once. Not duplicates of the same affidavit - but 10 separate affidavits. And yes, I sit there and do a separate entry for each one. A pain in the butt? Yes. Keeping a journal in itself is a pain in the butt. But boy will I be happy when I get subpoenaed into court one day and can show the judge the exact entry in question showing date, time, signature, type of act, etc. Then there can be no disputing that the notarization was performed properly.

IMO, keeping a proper journal with detailed records is your best defense as a notary, much more important than E&O insurance, and it is hard to believe that there are many notaries (in fact, most notaries in Fla. and I am sure most notaries elsewhere) who do not keep journals. Not only is the keeping of a notarial record as old a tradition as a notarial seal, but I have come across case law where a notary was called to testify as to a document notarized over 20 years prior. Of course, the notary, then over 80 years old, had no recollection of the actual notarization... he could only identify his signature and seal. What use is that testimony?

Our job as notaries is to serve as an official witness to the execution of important documents, so if the document is later called into question, we as state officers can testify as to the exact circumstances. Those who don't keep proper records could not possibly be able to remember the exact circumstances of a notarization occurring 20 years earlier.

In real estate conveyance documents I also have always included the name of the grantee and the location of the land in my journal notes. In Court related documents, I include the style of the case. I have several different stamps and I always notate in my journal which stamp was used for that notarization.

What makes the "one entry for each act" a gray area in Florida is that our governor's office considers one act to be the execution of one certificate. Thus, the fees are only $10.00 per stamp regardless of how many signatures are actually being notarized. IMO the state is just plain wrong here. For example, the affidavit used for wills in Florida is called a "proof of will". It is one certificate signed by the notary, but requires the acknowledgment of the testator and the oaths of two witnesses. So, even though I will have to make three separate journal entries, which adds another 3 minutes to the notarization process, the state considers these three separate acts to be one act for the purpose of collecting fees. IMO, each journal entry is a separate act entitling me to a separate fee. But, that is a different conversation.

In summary, I know that it can be a pain to do separate entries for each document, but it is really in your best interest and in the best interest of your client.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 4/3/10 9:45am
Msg #330198

Carol
I always used the NotRot Journal. Check out Harry's Msg #322514

I would never ask the NNA anything, they are not always correct in their answers.

Reply by Carol Graff on 4/3/10 11:48am
Msg #330206

thanks all for your answers. I have always itemized each item (not just "Loan docs" but just used one sig. & one thumbprint. I did see what Marian said was in the handbook, but found it unclear. You guys are the best--help keep me on my toes!

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 4/3/10 12:38pm
Msg #330211

Save not only their behinds

but their paycheck as well!

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 4/3/10 6:00pm
Msg #330243

Posted in wrong thread

When I figure out where it should be I'll repost.

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/3/10 5:48pm
Msg #330242

To save time when there will be many notarizations per person - whether a loan signing or general notary work - I complete a full line entry (full name, address, date, time, ID info, etc.) for the first entry. For the subsequent line entries (let's say I'm completing 10 per person) I just put their first name in the next 9 spots. I explain to the borrower that "in the interest of time" I'm only putting their first name in the next 9 spots and will later fill in their address, ID info, etc. They're usually fine with it.

I already have made a list of all the notarizations so I know how many are for each signer before I even drive to the signing and I stick the list in my journal on the page where I started their name. The signer will sign 10 times and I'll get 10 thumbprints and later go back and copy the info from the one complete line entry I filled in.

It's not as time consuming when I do it that way. If anyone is concerned that they'll get in a car accident and end up in a coma before they've completed all the line entries, then just complete them in the car after the signing before they drive off . The idea is to not to take up that time at the signing table.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 4/3/10 11:47pm
Msg #330276

Curious as to why ...

you get, say, 10 t-prints, assuming you're doing a loan signing with just one Deed of Trust?

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/4/10 10:48am
Msg #330298

Re: Curious as to why ...

<<<you get, say, 10 t-prints, assuming you're doing a loan signing with just one Deed of Trust?>>>

My SOP (standard operating procedure) is to request and collect a thumbprint for all notarizations - whether or not the doc is a deed or POA. When getting my own signature notarized, I give a thumbprint - regardless of type of doc. Most people view giving a thumbprint as "part of the whole routine".

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 4/4/10 2:03pm
Msg #330306

Re: Curious as to why ...

Not me. I don't do anything I don't have to and do everything I have to. I guess I'm a "minimalist." If the CA legislature (bless their hearts!) wanted me to get a t-print for every notarization, they would have said so. But the fact they didn't, doesn't mean you can't, of course, and more power to you! Just as I would rather hang up my seal than get , say, 10 t-prints and 10 signatures in a loan pkg. But that's just me .. Happy Easter, LKT/CA, I enjoy your posts!

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/4/10 4:54pm
Msg #330317

Re: Curious as to why ...

Thanks GoldGirl, Happy Easter !

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/4/10 5:31pm
Msg #330322

Re: Curious as to why ... Goldgirl I agree.

My attorney told me that being a minimalist where notarization is concerned is doing exactly what I should. His advice is that a notary should never do more than is required...the more you do the more you incur liability for your actions. That's his advice. He's in Tx and so am I, of course.

However, as a Ca. notary, if I got a thumbprint on every notarization I would be less likely to forget it where required. I see where LKT is coming from.