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There was a recent thread about doing POA's and what was
Notary Discussion History
 
There was a recent thread about doing POA's and what was
Go Back to January, 2010 Index
 
 

Posted by kathy/ca on 1/19/10 5:03pm
Msg #318590

There was a recent thread about doing POA's and what was

stated by most of the "responders" was that it is not our concern to inspect the POA but that would have already been handled by the TC. BUT, what about a non loan signing, in other words what are your thoughts about getting a call to do "general" notary work involving a POA?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/19/10 5:14pm
Msg #318592

I'm not sure I understand. It's the same as any other notary assignment. You're notarizing the signature. The only thing you need to concern yourself about the document itself is making sure that it's complete - meaning fields are filled out, etc.

Reply by Cari on 1/19/10 5:24pm
Msg #318594

I do these all the time..no biggie, n u get paid upfront... n/m

Reply by Roger_OH on 1/19/10 6:19pm
Msg #318606

General Notary POAs

The last discussion included these points:

If the signer is signing as an attorney-in-fact for someone else, you don't need to verify the POA they're signing under. They're representing themselves as the AIF and it's not your responsibility to be concerned about that. Just follow your normal notary procedures; the exception is if there's jurat language on the document, the AIF signer can't swear to the doc on behalf of the person they're signing for; only for themselves if they are also a signer.

If you're notarizing a signature on a durable health care or financial POA, again, it's just another document as far as standard notary procedure. Just be certain all the spaces are filled in, and ENSURE that the signer is competent and aware of/OK with the content of the doc.



Reply by Stamper_WI on 1/19/10 6:09pm
Msg #318604

I think what the concern is any limitations of the POA. Some can be very specific on what the POA can and cannot do.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/19/10 6:13pm
Msg #318605

Same thing, at least for CA...

In CA, we're not allowed to certify capacity of the signer.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/19/10 6:23pm
Msg #318607

I don't think certifying capacity was the issue..

I think the OP's question was when doing general notary work (as opposed to loan signings where the POA is approved ahead of time) do any notaries ask to see the POA to determine if the signer has the authority they claim to have. Not a case of certifying capacity but making sure the person has the authority to sign in the first place. If I'm wrong, Kathy, please correct me.

In FL, we can't do that - we have to take their word - and we DO include capacity in our certs but it's based on their statement that they have the POA.



Reply by Cari on 1/19/10 6:48pm
Msg #318616

Re: I don't think certifying capacity was the issue..

"BUT, what about a non loan signing...."

I thought she meant other non-loan POA's such as advance directives for medical decisions or a financial power of attorney used in case one loses their mental capacity and wants someone else to take over their finances...

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/19/10 6:51pm
Msg #318617

Because she said this..

"...was that it is not our concern to inspect the POA but that would have already been handled by the TC. BUT, what about a non loan signing"



Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/19/10 7:20pm
Msg #318620

Re: I don't think certifying capacity was the issue..

I never ask... if they say they're the POA, it doesn't matter to me. My only concern is verifying the individual. They are the ones who claim their own capacity.


Reply by kathy/ca on 1/19/10 7:26pm
Msg #318622

Linda, you got it, sorry I didnt give more detail but yes,

shouldnt we see the POA to make sure they have the authority to sign as AIF for someone else or like Marian said, do you just take their word for it? I have always asked to see the original POA but on another thread (dont recall which one off hand) I read where other notaries dont.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/19/10 7:36pm
Msg #318625

Re: Linda, you got it, sorry I didnt give more detail but yes,

As I said, in FL we're not required to see it - we're instructed to take the AIF at their word - I don't agree with this practice at all, I think it makes it too easy for the notary to end up being complicit in a fraud, but it's what we're instructed to do.

Don't know about other states.

Reply by PAW on 1/19/10 7:43pm
Msg #318626

In FL, we don't need to see the POA

Other states may handle it differently, but a notary only notarizes signatures. It's not up to the notary to determine if a person has the right or authority to sign it, just that it is who it says it is and they signed it.

In some non-loan circumstances as well as with real estate transactions that included loans, the recipient of the document requested an affidavit be signed by the signer stating, under oath, that they have the authority to sign as an AIF. Though the FL manual doesn't have a sample affidavit, there are other sections of the FL statutes (e.g., F.S. 709.08(04)) that do provide for one.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/19/10 7:55pm
Msg #318630

I wouldn't...

I wouldn't ask to see the POA, only because you are then determining if they have the right or capacity to actually sign the document. That's outside the scope of our duties in California.

Now, if they just hand it to me I might glance over it to be nice, but I would never ask to see it.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/19/10 10:37pm
Msg #318641

Re: Linda, you got it, sorry I didnt give more detail but yes,

First of all, there's a difference between notarizing a POA document and notarizing a person who is signing as someone's AIF under the presumed authority of a POA.

If you take a moment to think about it, when the AIF signs the document, they sign both their own name, the name of the person they are signing for AND wording that indicates that they are signing as that person's AIF. Pretty straight forward and obvious. So I think it is up to the recipient of the document to worry about whether or not they have the authority they claim, if the POA is legit, and if they will accept the document as signed. We just need to worry about doing our part - which like the others said - is pretty much the same for any doc.

Reply by kathy/ca on 1/19/10 10:47pm
Msg #318642

Well said Janet, thanks for clarifying the difference. n/m

Reply by John Schenk on 1/20/10 9:58pm
Msg #318743

Didn't read the responses but a POA signing is a POA signing...same rules apply no matter what you're having them sign.

JJ

Reply by MW/VA on 1/19/10 7:57pm
Msg #318631

Much of the general notary work I get calls for involves the signing of a POA (nursing homes, etc.).
There is a willingness/awareness aspect to notary work. I always make sure the person is aware of what powers the POA grants & is signing of their own free will. I think this is what your question addresses, correct?

Reply by Laura_V on 1/19/10 8:57pm
Msg #318636

I agree with most of what is posted here and........

When I lived in my old WA town there was a medium sized hospital and a large surrounding campus of labs, private dr offices, and other medical professional buildings.

So lots of ppl needed POAs - mostly financial/general ones just before surgery, etc. (So AIF could pay bills for a patient in a hospital, etc.) Health care POAs in WA do not have to be notarized, last I looked (last spring).

But there is additional opportunity for notary work related to health POAs.

x has a free form with instructions for a combo POA health and Advanced Healthcare Directive (pull the plug, don't pull).

A wonderful govt group/agency here has a terrific free pdf with instructions and form on its website.

By law, the form does not need to be notarized. It does require 2 witnesses.

All the ppl I worked with wanted witnesses and notarization. (of course. they wouldn't have gone to a notary otherwise)

(sorry for sm case and abbrevs. pinky hurts due to injury- ie capitalization finger. ouch)

A couple of years ago when that gal died after being in a coma for years and zillions of ppl were mad at her poor hubby and the judge for stopping life support, I noticed a huge uptick in my Will / POA health + Adv health direct work.

My clients wanted all docs notarized with witnesses except the poa-gen.

I knew why.

Besides knowing about the poor gal in the coma, a good friend of mine had to fight with nurses on behalf of her hubby and his father. Father was dying and knew it. Had proper paperwork for non-resusitation and all that. But poor middle-aged son was being tortured by the nurses and badgered for being a bad son.

What awful ppl!

In WA, the above situation is even more common. Ppl here are very churchy, shall we say. They think pull the plug is a sin.

So my clients wanted their docs notarized. That's when I started adding gold seals to these pkgs. Somehow gold seals are intimidating. (Heck, they are 11c each.) But if gold paper helps my clients, that's ok with me.


WA's notary and witness fees are terrific. Same as or better than CA. I had the clients pay cash to the witnesses directly and noted that on the receipts.


In a month or two, I am doing a free notary day at the Sr Center here. Wills only. There are ppl who have OK money. There are some absolutely broke ppl here. No other notaries but me will touch wills here. (No atty need be involved like I hear is req in CA.)

So I know there are poor elderly ppl who just want to be certain the cat goes to a friend, not the shelter or worse. And s/he care who gets the shabby house that needed a new roof 10 years ago.

WA req 2 witnesses so they can witness for ea other.


Soon after this I will do a free poa-health combo adv health care directv. 2 witnesses needed here, too.

Both types of notarizations are VERY tricky in WA. None of the other notaries in town get them right.

But POA-gen is easy. And the banks do them for free. I will leave well enough alone there.

btw - five wishes is hugely popular. google it and take a look. Marketing coup of you know all about it when the client first phones you for a potential appt.



Reply by Laura_V on 1/19/10 9:01pm
Msg #318637

Ooops. poa gen needs notarization too.

Sorry. Tired. Finger really hurts.

x is named agency a line or two below.
Tired again. Time for building eve fire and turning in.

Reply by Laura_V on 1/19/10 11:33pm
Msg #318646

Do y'all want a POA marketing Live Chat soon?

If so, OK by me.

Daylight here is 8am to 4pm. Hate the short daylight hours.

Might as well be VERY happy to help notaries get work via hostessing Live Chats on NotRot at 4pm Pacific time.

Just let me know.

We can have a fun Live Chat in 2 weeks on a Sunday re how to get work related to PoA's - financial, health care, etc. Wills, Living Wills, etc, included.

My only requirement: nice ppl only.

Let me know, LauraV

Reply by Riley/FL on 1/20/10 3:47pm
Msg #318696

Re: Do y'all want a POA marketing Live Chat soon?

I would like to join in.

Reply by kathy/ca on 1/20/10 3:57pm
Msg #318699

Laura, count me in! n/m

Reply by SharonMN on 1/20/10 4:59pm
Msg #318705

Not your job to check validity of POA. Think of it same way when you're notarizing a signature on a deed - you don't run over to the county recorded to make sure the person really owns the house, do you? Or if John Smith signs as VP of Company ABC, do you call the corporate secretary of ABC to make sure he's really a vice president? Of course not.

The ultimate recipient of the document is responsible for all that. For example, if BrendaTX wrote a letter asking my bank to send her all of the money in my account, she could go before a notary and have her signature on that letter notarized. But I'd be mighty upset with my bank if they sent her all my money without documentation that she was an authorized signer on my account - which the notarization does not do, it just shows that Brenda signed the letter willingly and showed ID.


 
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