Posted by MW/VA on 1/17/11 2:43pm Msg #368952
Where does society stand on "rules" these days? I've been
having some thoughts since the postings about the CA internet notary co. & the recent issues with proposed VA legislation on e-notarization. IMHO since the inception of the internet, we are moving in a direction where many feel rules no longer apply. I've been running into that in many places recently. I'm certainly glad that the notaries here are educated & savvy. We stress adherence to each state's notary laws all day long. Then we're faced with issues that try to throw the rules out the window. Anyone have any thoughts?
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Reply by Scott/NJ on 1/17/11 3:00pm Msg #368953
My thoughts: 1. "rules no longer apply" versus "the rules have changed"? Or rather the rules are morphing with the advent of newer technology, etc. I adhere to the laws as written, but am prepared to adjust my ways if the laws change. I try to foresee what might need changing and how that may affect my livelihood so I'm not blindsided by those changes. 2. A graduate of West Point *may* have learned a good idea or two. I am interested in seeing where this goes. Maybe some changes or adjustments need to be made, but this could be a 'direction' the notary business is heading. It seems to me that he had his business plan up and running BEFORE the VA bill hit the streets. Could he know something we don't? Most certainly. 3. Confucious say: Man who says it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it.
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Reply by MW/VA on 1/17/11 3:14pm Msg #368955
Good response. I'm thinking about the robo-notarizations in the foreclosure mess, etc. Does just ignoring rules/laws make them go away? If we remove the traditional need for people to appear before the notary (granted, I can see a webcam appearance as a physical appearance) & produce valid ID (no way to really check ID through a website), then the function of a notary has completely disappeared, IMHO. I don't want to take this discussion to "Just Politics" because I'm focusing on the potential effect on notary laws.
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Reply by Scott/NJ on 1/17/11 3:35pm Msg #368960
No, clearly the robonotarizations are not an indication of the future. I'm confident that mess will be cleaned up. Swept under the rug maybe, but cleaned up.
Perhaps an adjustment to the traditional way of "appearing personally", but the function of an impartial witness still remains. Even if that impartial witness (the NEW Notary Public), conducted the witnessing with the aid of electronic gadgetry.
Think of the possibility of removing the function of an attorney...or a judge. Nowadays when you get a ticket from one of those cameras at an intersection you do not have to appear anywhere at all! Just pay your fine electronically and the cop, lawyer, judge and court clerk were all eliminated from the equation.
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Reply by HisHughness on 1/17/11 5:21pm Msg #368976
*** clearly the robonotarizations are not an indication of the future.***
Not a sign of the future, but of the past.
Notarization of signatures has historically been treated as nothing more than an afterthought, and one that is really quite insignificant. Among the worst offenders were attorneys, coming in right after car dealers. Robosigning is naught but what has occurred in the past, rendered wholesale simply because there were more signatures that needed to be notarized.
If the current crisis has done nothing else, it has focused attention on the purpose of a notarization, and how one should be done.
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Reply by Lavergne Manuel on 1/17/11 3:16pm Msg #368956
Confucious is not here anymore or he would probably say please interrupt him before he screws a lot of good notaries up. West Point is no better a school than thousands of others in the United States. We need to do our best to stop him.
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Reply by OR on 1/17/11 3:21pm Msg #368957
Re: Where does society stand on "rules" these days? I've been n/m
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Reply by OR on 1/17/11 3:46pm Msg #368961
sorry here is my .02
Oregon will does not allow it. However if it ever gets up and running I do not think it will be able to be sustained for $14.95. 1) Too many banks notarize 1 page docs for free 2) At $14.99 price no one will ever make any money. Divide the gross into thirds....1/3 into NotaryNow's pocket....1/3 to NoataryNow's overhead....1/3 to the remote notary. Then the remote notary has their cost... The $4.98 gross divided into 1/3rd's that is $1.66 net. I don't think any Notary would go to all the expense of setting up then the work to notarize to NET the BIG LUMP SUM OF $1.66 JMO
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Reply by Les_CO on 1/17/11 4:40pm Msg #368970
Re: sorry here is my .02
With the amount of foreclosures happening now, and in the coming year(s), and all the paperwork that was done incorrectly, and must be redone, How many millions upon millions of dollars would banks save in legal/notary fees if they could push through some moronic legislation allowing for “video-cam" notarizations?
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Reply by Les_CO on 1/17/11 4:15pm Msg #368966
“Could he know something we don't?” Well.... He knew enough not to try it in CA, and to not do it himself, and to hire someone gullible enough to do it for him. Just because some elected official or bureaucrat proposes something, doesn’t mean it will work, or that it is a good idea, or that any thought went into the proposal in the first place. JMO
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Reply by James Dawson on 1/17/11 4:56pm Msg #368971
conventional wisdom tells me to leave this alone for a number of reason. #1 IF they charge $14.95 per notarization, how much did they pay the notary to do it?
I'm stopping right there, someone please answer that, preferably the one who did it.
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Reply by Scott/NJ on 1/17/11 5:21pm Msg #368975
If there were the typical 10 notarizations required for a loan package, that would be $149.50 charged. If I could do that while sitting in my office...
If you were doing a single notarization and you didn't have to go anywhere, would $10 be ok? Then the website gets $4.95. Some websites make money on advertising, so the entire $14.95 could ALL go to the notary. Just thinking outside of the box.
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Reply by Les_CO on 1/17/11 5:37pm Msg #368983
There are some really smart people out there…
These notaries noy only broke the law, performed an illegal act, will be personally liable for any and all loss that may have been suffered by the customer relying on a document with a fraudulent attestation/notarization, probably lose their commission, and all for what? You can bet less than $5!
If you going to take these chances at least do it like Bernard Madoff.
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Reply by James Dawson on 1/17/11 5:31pm Msg #368979
In this case we're talking about one notarization. Cal charges $10.00 per sign..$4.95?
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Reply by MikeC/NY on 1/17/11 5:54pm Msg #368988
Re: IF they charge $14.95 per notarization
"IF they charge $14.95 per notarization, how much did they pay the notary to do it?"
If you look at their pricing page, $14.95 per notary signature includes a $2.50 notarization fee. So, that may be what they're paying the notary...
Their Terms of Service reference NJ law (I assume that's based on their interpretation of NJ law, which is questionable if the NJ SOS is saying this is illegal in that state), so maybe that's what NJ notaries get per sig? If this turkey is ever able to fly - and I don't see that happening in the near future, because what they're attempting to do is currently illegal in all 50 states - that one-size-fits-all pricing would have to change to reflect what each state allows a notary to charge.
Or maybe not. They've already ignored the laws regarding personal appearance, so what's another ignored statute or two between friends?
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Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/17/11 10:06pm Msg #369004
Re: IF they charge $14.95 per notarization
My guess is that they find people who don't even know what a notary is, help them get a commission - probably in a state where it's easy to get one - then they put them on a modest salary. I'm thinking they plan to run this like a call center with employees who are under their control.
IMO, the guy is clearly visualizing this as just a means to an end and he pretty much said as much. He's looking for a more "efficient" way to get a notary signature on a page and be done with it. It seems to me that the actual purpose of a notarization is immaterial to him - or he doesn't really understand what it is.
As for changing times, just because new technology makes something possible, it doesn't mean that it's a good idea. I don't believe that appearing via a webcam is equivalent to personal appearance as it is done today. Just as this process, as described by NotaryNow, can be made easy, so could it probably be easily faked.
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Reply by FGX/NJ on 1/17/11 6:08pm Msg #368989
Scott When West Point graduate meets NJ Notary, US Marine graduate of Paris Island on field of battle in NJ , who do think will win? Hey Chris come on out and answer Ripoff report on NotaryNow!!
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Reply by BrendaTx on 1/17/11 7:51pm Msg #368996
Scott/NJ, Chris Hawkins was given an opportunity
to explain what law provided for this new venture. He was asked; but he did not reply.
This can be sun as soon to come, great, future technology all you want to, but until there's a law for it the breach of current notary law is a serious matter. Or, it is "said" to be. If this goes unchecked, I suggest a free for all.
Could he know something that we don't know? Sure. But, that the State of NJ doesn't, the same office that says this is not lawful at this time? We'll see?
Confucious say: Man who says it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it, unless it is not lawful, then he does said man great service.
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Reply by BrendaTx on 1/17/11 7:53pm Msg #368997
Re: Scott/NJ, Chris --correction.
Good grief.
This can be sun as soon to come,
should be
This can be seen as soon to come, great technology...etc.
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Reply by Lee/AR on 1/17/11 5:25pm Msg #368977
To me, the internet is an unknown territory... sorta like the Wild West. Anybody can (and many obviously do) throw anything 'out there' for whatever reason strikes them as good.
I mean, when I received my first notary commission I would have thought you were crazy if you'd told me that someday I'd be driving around the countryside with a stack of papers that I had printed at home for some bank for the express purpose of notarizing people signatures. And I'd even have a website that would hopefully get me more of this type of business.
I don't think they meant anything malicious.... just some people bright enough to put together a really decent-looking website that sounded 'reasonable' (to them and undoubtedly quite a few of the general public...and, at least, one newbie NJ notary that we've heard about).
I--may be very gullible--but truly think that they thought this sounded like a reasonable extension of being able to shop/purchase/pay for all sorts of stuff online or paying all your bills online...and my bank will soon have 'deposits on line'. Where does this go from here?
Soooo....why not? As we've all discovered, most of the general public really doesn't have an accurate idea of 'what notaries do' and I'm absolutely positive that this outfit has the same notion as the general public does about notaries/notarizations and thought they were the next (what's that kid's name that put Facebook together) and are eagerly awaiting being bought out and becoming millionaires. They just didn't bother to "look at the legal". Which is quite like a large number of banks have recently done, eh? Oh, and then there's MERS.
I can quite understand their 'thinking'. Even tho' it's waaay wrong.
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Reply by Lee/AR on 1/17/11 5:31pm Msg #368978
Adding.....
How many of us knowledgeable notaries didn't think 'whoa... if this is legal....sign me up'.
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Reply by James Dawson on 1/17/11 5:32pm Msg #368981
Re: Adding.....good point! n/m
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Reply by Les_CO on 1/17/11 5:32pm Msg #368980
I think they did
"look at the legal" quite carefully. That's why they didn't do it themselves.
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Reply by Lee/AR on 1/17/11 5:38pm Msg #368984
Re: I think they did
I don't think any of 'em know diddley about notaries/notarizations or that they even bothered checking... just looked at sites like this and thought..."wow--what a market'. Don't need to be a notary to start an SS or a Directory....or even work for same. IF I thought I'd just invented the next Facebook, why would I do the gruntwork?
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Reply by Les_CO on 1/17/11 5:43pm Msg #368986
Re: I think they did
Why then with their companies located in CA, and they themselves located in CA did they start this in New Jersey, with NJ notaries? Did you read some of their posts here?
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Reply by Lee/AR on 1/17/11 5:47pm Msg #368987
Re: I think they did
Because they only found one gullible newbie notary.... in New Jersey? Heck... I dunno but it seems to me that if I totally KNEW what I was promoting was illegal, I certainly wouldn't have a website dedicated to it.
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Reply by FGX/NJ on 1/17/11 6:14pm Msg #368990
Re: I think they did
I think this will soon be one exNotary in NJ
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Reply by Scott/NJ on 1/17/11 6:18pm Msg #368991
Re: I think they did
Wow. Tough crowd in this forum. But then, I guess when a West Point graduate can be so readily disrespected, I should have known not to attempt an intelligent conversation.
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Reply by FGX/NJ on 1/17/11 6:25pm Msg #368992
Re: I think they did
It is Capt. Chris Hawkins who has brought dishonor on West Point
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Reply by Les_CO on 1/17/11 8:30pm Msg #369000
Re: I think they did
I missed the ‘intelligent’ part. Was that the “Confucius say:” part?
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Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/17/11 11:56pm Msg #369006
Re: I think they did
So.... is it only intelligent conversation if everyone agrees with you? And if you expected agreement, why bother posting to begin with? Personally, I thought there were quite a few intelligent, good points made here. IMO, the best "intelligent" conversation brings together many points of view and a variety of perspectives. I may not completely change my opinion, but I might still learn something and might have my eyes opened to other things I hadn't considered.
And yeah, it is a tough crowd here!
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Reply by jba/fl on 1/18/11 8:19am Msg #369015
Re: I think they did
"I guess when a West Point graduate can be so readily disrespected, "
So he went to school and passed - that is a worthy accomplishment. That he went on to do dishonorable acts is not due to being a WP grad, but to having character flaw(s).
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time. Abraham Lincoln, (attributed) 16th president of US (1809 - 1865)
also attributed to P.T. Barnum
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Reply by Cari on 1/17/11 8:30pm Msg #369001
My .02 cents FWIW...technology will always be my
preference of choice, especially if it means improved or faster productive results, and more money for my businesses. Technology will always prevail.
I for one will finally be getting on board with e-signatures & e-notarizations (two different entities though both contain the similar tech), and will be seeking to obtain my electronic notary sig/digital certs, bio-pad, software etc. The XYZ's choice, though convenient as one nice little bundle, is just too expensive. Of course, another cash cow they created to suck even more $$$ out from notaries but that's another story.
IL was one of the first states to introduce, and utilize electronic signatures, and in that piece of legislation, also recognizes e-notarizations as valid and legal, same as if it was written in ink. However, IL has yet to provide any real direction, rules or regs concerning e-notarizations, only that they're legal? So that's a new challenge for me - how to proceed with these e-notarizations, and then choosing which company to use to buy this technology...they're are many companies out there that offer these. But since this technology is currently being used, I have to start at least offering it to my clients, if I want my notary business moving forward and making money.
I admit to having a total disregard for electronic signatures (and e-signings). It seemed like any new tech with the "e" letter infront of it, was totally ignored as I just didn't want to be bothered learning something new. But up until now, this issue can no longer be ignored, and I have to address it. I have therefore taken the time to do some research, and will continue to do so to become more saavy in this area. And honestly, the more I find out about this technology, the more I really like it.
I suggest that everyone read up and learn everything that there is to know about e-signatures and e-notarizations, even if your state currently doesn't recognize either of these, because the reality is, they eventually will and if they do, its imperative that each notary public learn how to protect themselves, their credentials, and the public that they serve in lieu of lax e-notarization rules and guidelines.
Check out links below for more information regarding states that have accepted and not accepted UETA:
http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=13484
The link below, is is an article written in 1999 from a Chicago based lawfirm Baker & McKenzie. Even though its dated, I believe for those that want to know what are all of the legal aspects involved with this new technology, this is an excellent start.
http://library.findlaw.com/1999/Jan/1/241481.html
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Reply by Cari on 1/17/11 8:51pm Msg #369002
just adding that in my new studies, if I do utilize any
new tech involving e-signatures and e-notarizations, I will not compromise my notarial duties and responsibilities in any way shape or form by also utlizing the use of video conferencing or webcam equipment, as I strongly fee that these should NOT be used in lieu of personally appearing before a notary public!
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Reply by Les_CO on 1/18/11 9:25am Msg #369020
Re: just adding that in my new studies, if I do utilize any
Agreed Cari…I think we are talking apples, oranges, and bananas here..... all fruit, but very different (E-signings, E-notarizations, and witnessing a signature utilizing electronic means)
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Reply by OR on 1/18/11 11:47am Msg #369051
Re: Cari-your web site is WRONG-WRONG--I called My SOS
NCLS has their information wrong. I called the SOS Oregon and they say that Oregon does not not allow E Notarizing and has not intentions to allow it. The web site you posted said it that Oregon does allow E notarizations as of same change in 2009 law. The web site you quoted is clearly wrong. JoAnn Baracosa Simple Solution Notary Service
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Reply by Cari on 1/18/11 12:12pm Msg #369056
Okay, first its NOT MY website, and second, have YOU
contacted the website of NCLS? I just passed along some info...not claiming it to be mine in any way shape or form...
I'd be ready with a name & number from your SOS to give to the NCLS, just in case they want to verify the information.
If the NCLS site is in fact, they NEED to be told IMO.
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Reply by Cari on 1/18/11 12:13pm Msg #369058
If the NCLS site is in fact WRONG, tell them! n/m
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Reply by Cari on 1/18/11 12:16pm Msg #369060
See below regarding e-signatures in OR
Oregon Statutes - Chapter 84 - Electronic Transactions - Section 84.013 - Use of electronic records and electronic signatures; variation by agreement.
(1) ORS 84.001 to 84.061 do not require a record or signature to be created, generated, sent, communicated, received, stored or otherwise processed or used by electronic means or in electronic form.
(2) ORS 84.001 to 84.061 apply only to transactions between parties, each of which has agreed to conduct transactions by electronic means. Whether the parties agree to conduct a transaction by electronic means is determined from the context and surrounding circumstances, including the parties’ conduct.
(3) A party that agrees to conduct a transaction by electronic means may refuse to conduct other transactions by electronic means. The right granted by this subsection may not be waived by agreement.
(4) Except as otherwise provided in ORS 84.001 to 84.061, the effect of any provision of ORS 84.001 to 84.061 may be varied by agreement. The presence in certain provisions of ORS 84.001 to 84.061 of the words “unless otherwise agreed,” or words of similar import, does not imply that the effect of other provisions of ORS 84.001 to 84.061 may not be varied by agreement.
(5) Whether an electronic record or electronic signature has legal consequences is determined by ORS 84.001 to 84.061 and other applicable law. [2001 c.535 §5]
http://law.onecle.com/oregon/84-electronic-transactions/84.013.html
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Reply by Cari on 1/18/11 12:19pm Msg #369061
OR I'm referring to e-signatures NOT e-notarizations here
two different entities entirely, though some states that allow e-sigs do allow or do not oppose e-notarizations, like my state.
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Reply by Cari on 1/18/11 12:23pm Msg #369063
Found an interesting PPT....see link....
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~baumerdl/verisign.ESIGN.PowerPoint.ppt
Check out frame 15...
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Reply by Cari on 1/18/11 12:24pm Msg #369064
frame 16...sorry n/m
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Reply by OR on 1/18/11 12:37pm Msg #369067
Re: frame 16...sorry
84.031
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Reply by MW/VA on 1/18/11 1:52pm Msg #369083
Re: My .02 cents FWIW...technology will always be my
I'm all for technology, don't get me wrong. After all, it's what's put me in biz. Edocs are pretty standard these days. I need all the tools I can get--high-speed internet, fast laser printers, Blackberry, GPS, now even Sync in my new vehicle. I have no issues with e-notarization, per se, only that the laws of each state still need to be complied with. I think those without proper knowledge are misconstruing what "e-notarization" is. While XYZ is strong for lobbying & alerts, they are also known for publishing misleading & incorrect info. I'm sure we'll see a platform developed for handling transactions via webcam (or skype, for that matter) in the future. A After all, people have been filing taxes with electronic signatures for years. It's still not the same thing as something that requires notarization.
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Reply by Cari on 1/18/11 2:14pm Msg #369092
Agree, and what I find interesting is that some of these
states that have approved e-signatures, put in a very small slab about e-notarizations, but doesn't bother to offer any real guidance...no accountability from our state legislature at all.
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Reply by Les_CO on 1/18/11 3:05pm Msg #369102
Re: Agree, and what I find interesting is that some of these
You finally made me LAUGH! I‘ve been a bit bored reading some of this stuff, most of which does not apply… working my through ‘a thread at a time,’ but…. THIS got my attention… ”no accountability from our state legislature at all.” What did you expect? These are officials elected in the best Chicago tradition…., illiterate maybe, but stand up guys (some friends of the President?) some in jail, some been, some going. It’s very difficult for them respond to something they do not understand, have never understood, and will NEVER understand. That is there are honest people (some public officials) in this world, and what they do and what they represent is more IMPORTANT to them and our society than making a fast buck. JMO!
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