Join  |  Login  |   Cart    

Notary Rotary
Going to take the day to parse through the language inserted
Notary Discussion History
 
Going to take the day to parse through the language inserted
Go Back to November, 2013 Index
 
 

Posted by Malbrough_LA on 11/15/13 9:06am
Msg #492878

Going to take the day to parse through the language inserted

in this: http://signingprofessionalsworkgroup.org/code-of-conduct/ .

I'm not approaching this as a legal expert, but I am approaching it from an analytic, linguistic, and logical one. More than likely it's going to take a bit, but I'll post what I find when everything's all said and done.

Right off the bat, the first thing that jumps out at me is this: "While state Notary Public laws and regulations apply to the notarial acts performed by Specialists, these laws offer no guidance to the non-notarial services rendered by Specialists." As a notary, I'm not offering any non-notarial services; therefore, these "non-notarial services" I'm purportedly rendering which I'm unaware I'm rendering would need to be fleshed out in detail so that I can discern whether or not my SoS already covers them. Specifically, what is and is not a notarial service? If it's a non-notarial service, why does one require it be performed by a notary? At what point does the notary pen drop and the non-notary pen get picked up?

Further than that, I've read that the NNA merely has an advisory capacity for this SPW. Is that correct? If so, why does the SPW "Leadership" page specifically list two prominent members of the NNA? One who "...oversees the NNA’s Trusted Notary Program" and another who is "...the NNA’s Vice President of Best Practices and eNotarization". Is their leadership merely advisory? If we're parsing words, all leaders, followers, associates, etc merely f(x) in "advisory" capacities. The boss advises me to follow the rules of the organization. I decide for myself to adhere to said advise or not. It seems like someone is trying to remove the decision one has in whether to follow or not..interesting, but enough for now. I've got quite a bit of reading and analysis to do, Smile

Reply by 101livescan on 11/15/13 9:18am
Msg #492882

Well, I can't wait to learn more from your review of these proposals to control the Notary Loan Signing Agent, and the proposed transgression from acting as a Notary Public and acting as a Certified Signing Specialist, and now how we are to be "regulated" when we've always been commissioned and regulated by the SOS of each state, and serious infractions handed down by the Court system of these states.



Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/15/13 9:38am
Msg #492887

"As a notary, I'm not offering any non-notarial services; therefore, these "non-notarial services" I'm purportedly rendering which I'm unaware I'm rendering would need to be fleshed out in detail so that I can discern whether or not my SoS already covers them."

Those of us outside Louisiana render extensive non-notarial services when associated with loan closings. Printing, presenting loan docs with descriptions, making sure the package is properly executed, shipping - all non-notarial functions.

Reply by Malbrough_LA on 11/15/13 9:48am
Msg #492890

I see where you're coming from, Linda. That's the stuff I need specified on where the lines begin and end. My immediate question then becomes this: If everything I'm doing is to ensure a proper and legal notarization, how does that not fall under the purview of notary service? Yes, I also print the package - in order to get it notarized. Yes, I also present the documents - in order to get them notarized. Yes, I return the documents where they need to go - because I was contracted to get them notarized. If the SPW Code was designed to get me best practices on how to print, present, and ship, it's a) awfully long to explain those simple and rudimentary tasks and b) should never mention anything regarding notarization. Sadly that is not the case as I am reading it. Frown

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/15/13 9:54am
Msg #492891

Quickly and shooting from the hip - not all docs are

notarized...yet we address each one..

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/15/13 10:01am
Msg #492893

To add

You're not contracted to address and deal with only the docs needing to be notarized - it's all others too that fall under the purview of "signing agent" - not just notary.

The SPW guidelines, you will see, and IMHO, are more concerned with who they're sending out to the borrowers, and I think a lot of it is the result of clueless, unprofessional notaries.

JMHO

Reply by Malbrough_LA on 11/15/13 10:03am
Msg #492894

Re: To add

"...clueless, unprofessional notaries." Well said!

You hit the nail on the head with that one. Smile This is why I'm all for tougher regulations by each respective SoS during the examination process. Each state jumps on board with that and the "problem" evaporates.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/15/13 10:07am
Msg #492895

Then you're asking for individual state regulation

for signing agents and independent contractors - taking the "independent" out.

Reply by Malbrough_LA on 11/15/13 10:17am
Msg #492897

Not necessarily.

Think along other professional lines. Nurses come to mind. My wife is a nurse, god bless her - someone has to do it. First and foremost she's a nurse responsible to the Nursing Board. She has the specialization of working in the ER, yet there is no ER Nurses Board. She learned what she needed to learn and functions as an ER nurse without having to become a Certified Emergency Room Nurse, yet she has also functioned as a pediatric nurse. She also learned that without having to become a Certified Pediatric Nurse. The classification is covered under the umbrella that is the term 'nurse'. It's not covered under the specialization that she chooses to earn a living within her profession. There's the entirety of the problem IMO. Are you a notary public who can perform closings because you've earned a commission? Or are you a notary public who also is a signing agent/certified signing professional/x,y,z who functions one moment as one and the next moment as another? Not sure about other states, but in Louisiana, there is no demarcation of terms. It's the segmenting that's causing the problem.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/15/13 10:26am
Msg #492900

Re: Not necessarily.

" she's a nurse responsible to the Nursing Board" - there ya go - she's responsible to a state licensing agency who regulates and oversees her - to the degree that she is a nurse.

There is no such umbrella for signing agents as far as I'm aware. The only thing our SOS is concerned with is our conduct as a notary. All signings agents have to be notaries but all notaries to not have to be signing agents - and signing agent duties are not overseen or regulated by any agency other than the hiring party's requirements for proper execution of the package.

JMO

Reply by Malbrough_LA on 11/15/13 10:49am
Msg #492904

Re: Not necessarily.

I like the venn diagram explanation. While not all notaries have to be "signing agents," by proxy they are. One of the other posts mentioned clients bringing in their closing documents for notarization. I love these for the simple reason that the middle man has been eliminated. In so far as an umbrella for signing agents, I've approached my SoS about this a few times - no such animal exists. I get the docs, bring them there, get them signed, and send them on their way. This falls under the purview of my conduct as a notary. The mention of the agency that contracted me for proper execution is confusing. There's one way to perform a proper execution - correctly and legally. I understand how to do that as do many others. (Unfortunately, you are correct that some do not.) Whose fault is that? That problem started well before docs were ever initiated. It was at the state level when someone decided to go to the courthouse and pay $10 to be a notary and try their hand at this. Most professions have a testing or regulatory process. Where it becomes degrading to me personally is knowing how difficult my state's process is and having an extraneous entity come in and basically say, not good enough - here's another hoop which will require your money and time. After what we go through in this state, it's no wonder we look at these developments, shake our heads, stare deadpan and say: What?

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 11/15/13 11:22am
Msg #492910

My point precisely. Ryan thank you for being succinct. n/m

Reply by janCA on 11/15/13 10:25am
Msg #492899

Re: And to add further

Many states do not require testing for even the basic notary skills or knowledge in order to become a notary public. Not that testing will make you a better signing agent, but it certainly will begin to weed out those that are clueless on many levels.

Reply by JinCA on 11/15/13 11:36am
Msg #492913

Re: To add

And who cranked out most of those clueless Notaries, who are causing the problems? The NNA, that's who!

Reply by EJC/LA on 11/15/13 10:37am
Msg #492902

Quote: My immediate question then becomes this: If everything I'm doing is to ensure a proper and legal notarization, how does that not fall under the purview of notary service? Yes, I also print the package - in order to get it notarized. Yes, I also present the documents - in order to get them notarized. Yes, I return the documents where they need to go - because I was contracted to get them notarized. If the SPW Code was designed to get me best practices on how to print, present, and ship, it's a) awfully long to explain those simple and rudimentary tasks and b) should never mention anything regarding notarization. Sadly that is not the case as I am reading it.


Ryan: one question I have is how do you work with/around the LRS 35:4 §199 requirement that the notary passing an act of mortgage of an immovable record the document with the parish clerk?

Reply by Malbrough_LA on 11/15/13 10:56am
Msg #492905

Good Question. Clarified this with SoS and Pamela at LNA a

year ago.
LRS 35:4 §199 has an exception as follows:

D. a notary public shall be relieved of his obligation under Paragraph (A)(1) and Subparagraph (A)(2)(a) of this Section when he has ben expressly directed in writing by all parties to the instrument to defer or refrain from such recordation or to deliver the instrument to one of the parties or to another person.

This actually happens to me quite a bit when constructing Acts of Cash Sale or Dation en Paiments between two individuals that are steering clear of the banks, lenders, etc because they just want to keep things simple.

Reply by EJC/LA on 11/15/13 4:18pm
Msg #492951

Re: Good Question. Clarified this with SoS and Pamela at LNA a

That would seem to work if we are engaged by the Mortgagee; however, I don't see where we could refuse to record if the TC or SS wanted the docs sent back.

Reply by Malbrough_LA on 11/15/13 7:06pm
Msg #492979

Re: Good Question. Clarified this with SoS and Pamela at LNA a

I'm unsure where you got that it matters who engaged the notary from the statute.

I have in writing from the company that contacted me that they want the documents sent back to them immediately (and it's always included in their packages which are sent). To cover my bases, I get in writing a release from the borrower(s) relieving me, notary, from recordation. That's how I was instructed to handle it by SoS and backed up by each attorney I've spoken to. Is someone telling you to do it differently? Be wary and make sure you cover yourself. Smile

Reply by Malbrough_LA on 11/15/13 9:59am
Msg #492892

Interesting nugget right off the bat:

PURPOSE OF THE CODE
The Certified Signing Specialist’s pivotal role in lending integrity to mortgage finance and real property transactions necessitates sound standards for the performance of signing services.

Let's nix the term 'Certified Signing Specialist' and replace it with 'notary public.' It has a far more interesting and accurate reading.

The [Notary Public's] pivotal role in lending integrity to mortgage finance and real property transactions necessitates sound standards for the performance of signing services.

So our role as notaries is pivotal/vital/necessary. Indeed. The documents cannot achieve completion without us acting in our roles as public officials serving the public. What intrigues me more is the ending of the sentence, specifically, "....for the performance of signing services." There's also a mention of "lending integrity." We as public officials lend integrity to these signing services. Where is the mention of their pivotal role? So we need to lend integrity to these institutions because we are public officials and without us they would have no integrity to perform as a signing service? Perhaps I misread that....If not, it validates what I've suspected for a very long time, and maybe some of you have as well. A system was in place which functioned for a long time. Someone saw an opportunity for financial gain and jumped on it. Recognizing we were vital to the process, they decided to make themselves feel as though they were vital to the process too, but they never were.

Reply by 101livescan on 11/15/13 10:20am
Msg #492898

Re: Interesting nugget right off the bat:

Exactly, touché!

Reply by Pamela/CA on 11/15/13 11:02am
Msg #492906

Re:Careful guys....lets not talk ourselves out of business..

SOS commissions and regulates Notaries Public. That's all. NNA thought up the 'Signing Agent' designation to 'sell' their national membership products (education, booklets, etc) that would set its members off from the rest of Notaries. This 'thing' we ALL share, whether or not NNA is your organization, called Signing Agent is definitely separate and apart from the laws of serving the Public by 'notarizing'.
SOS has no jurisdiction in overseeing Mortgage activities - I think that is another agency. What do you guys think?

Reply by Malbrough_LA on 11/15/13 11:12am
Msg #492907

Re: Re:Careful guys....lets not talk ourselves out of business..

Not sure how anyone would be talked out of business.

"This 'thing' we ALL share, whether or not NNA is your organization, called Signing Agent is definitely separate and apart from the laws of serving the Public by 'notarizing'.
SOS has no jurisdiction in overseeing Mortgage activities - I think that is another agency. What do you guys think?"

What I think is that I am responsible to notarize the signatures on the documents which just so happen to be mortgage related. In so far as my responsibility regarding the mortgage itself, that's handled on the other end of the table between the borrower and lender who is regulated by their own agency. Unless I have drafted the mortgage, which I do from time to time in my GNW, I'm not responsible for anything relating to the other side of the table.

In so far as the first part of the quote, it can't be separate and apart when it relates to that which is being performed. I'm aware of how the term came into existence; I'm also aware of how little weight it actually carries. You are correct it was designed as a separation to set equals apart. Has it accomplished that goal? How much of the problem, like many things in life, is manifested and originated because one must be better than another due to titles, exceptions, and the trappings contained therein?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/15/13 11:15am
Msg #492909

Ryan, I think the one thing you need to keep in mind in

all of this is YOUR location - you guys in Louisiana have far more responsibility and authority than the rest of us...and you, there, may be able to make that link to all things notary.

I agree with Pam's assessment. And that's what I was trying to say. When we go on loan signings we wear two hats. Maybe you in LA don't..but we do.

Reply by SharonMN on 11/15/13 12:55pm
Msg #492921

Re: Re:Careful guys....lets not talk ourselves out of business..

I agree. SOS regulates notaries, but not signing agent activities. I am a paralegal who is also a notary. SOS has no jurisdiction over regulating my paralegal activities, either.

Finally, someone can be a highly competent notary that follows all SOS rules and still be completely unqualified to be a signing agent.

I think it's important to ensure that people acting as signing agents are qualified, but I hate how SPW has gone about doing it.

Reply by Malbrough_LA on 11/15/13 3:33pm
Msg #492942

Re: Re:Careful guys....lets not talk ourselves out of business..

Still looking for the delineation between the two terms getting batted around. That's what everyone seems to be utilzing to structurr any form of thesis/anti-thesis. Perhaps a list of your signing agent responsibilities which are in need of regulations would be an excellent place to begin.

Reply by jojo_MN on 11/15/13 3:49pm
Msg #492948

The state of MN has a Closers license for individuals that

deal with mortgage closings. In fact anyone that discusses anything in the loan packet with the borrowers are required to have this license.

In the classes, the loan document package is gone through in great detail right up to the point that if there is a mistake in signing the mortgage and the company sends it stapled, you have to make sure to put the staples in the exact holes if you have to "swap out the document". In addition, to get your Closer license there is a background check done by the state. Therefore, all of the the oversight and background checks is all taken care of. In My Own Opinion, of course!

Reply by John/CT on 11/15/13 5:21pm
Msg #492958

Actually, Pamela, XYZ did not think up the "Signing Agent"

designation. It was Susan Pense who came up with the concept, and the term "Certified Signing Agent". This was later acquired by NNA to exploit ... as we've sadly seen the results thereof. Frown

Reply by Malbrough_LA on 11/15/13 7:09pm
Msg #492980

Re: Actually, Pamela, XYZ did not think up the "Signing Agent"

"This was later acquired by NNA to exploit ... as we've sadly seen the results thereof. Frown "

THAT about sums up everything I've read in this hot mess of a codification so far.

Reply by Darlin_AL on 11/15/13 6:34pm
Msg #492975

Pamala, to answer your question, logically the lending

regulator/review aspect puts SA's under the umbrella of those facilitating lending, not the SOS. Primarily residential mtg lending is a big gov't regulated (or not, depends on politics).

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/15/13 8:28pm
Msg #492999

Re: Interesting nugget right off the bat:

Thanks for pointing out how much mumbo jumbo is in that first sentence. I happen to think that it's more dissembling from the real issues that need to be tackled than anything else.

I also think there are a number of factors influencing this effort by the SPW, their stated purpose notwithstanding. The initial impetus, in my opinion, was created by the Bulletins published by the CFPB requiring financial institutions to maintain protections of borrowers' non-public personal information (NPPI) - and to supervise their service providers and sub-contractors to do the same. All those parties are required to have policies and procedures in place to demonstrate how each is ensuring that this requirement is being met. This is a real need that will have to be addressed by all, one way or another.

It seems that XYZ has used this as an opportunity to overreach once again (under the guise of the SPW), to promote all these requirements, standards, and "codes", presumably in the interest of helping the affiliated lenders and title companies comply with the CFPB expectations. I don't doubt that there are sometimes problems with the process of getting a loan signed, but as we know, it's not infrequent that problems start way before the notary ever gets involved. So all this focus on the very end of the process is only addressing a small piece of the picture. And some of the things the SPW codes try to address have little, if anything, to do with the mandates from the CFPB, based on what I've read so far.

And none of it addresses problems we find ourselves having to deal with after the fact from time to time. For example, just this week (again), I received an email asking me to please send an acknowledgment certificate for a document that wasn't notarized at the signing. (No need for an original, just send the certificate... Yeah, right - NOT!) Fortunately, the docs were sent to me in a PDF which I had saved to an external drive (kept just until I'm paid), so I was able to verify that it wasn't notarized because it was never sent to me. I told them I'd be happy to go back out to take care of it for them, but curiously, I never heard back. (BTW, this request was from a 4.5 star ss, on behalf of a major national title company...)

And speaking of overreach, I'd be very interested in your opinion of the Authorization and Release form that Fidelity is asking that all notaries sign before accepting work from them. I don't mind getting an annual background screen (aside from the extra expense), but in the interest of protecting the privacy of borrowers, we're being asked to effectively sign away, with impunity, our own privacy protections. How ironic... or is "hypocritical" a more apt description? (I think there are links to that document provided on this forum somewhere but I couldn't find it in a quick search. Maybe someone else can help?)

I don't deny that there is much room for improvement when it comes to the overall picture of document signing, but their approach seems to be to try to wedge a potentially complex, very diverse process (because of all the significantly different lender and title documents and state laws) into a simplistic, idiot-proof, one-size-fits-all approach.

I'm no doubt preaching to the choir here, but ya never know who else is reading this forum. Wink


Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/15/13 8:54pm
Msg #493004

I found a link to the Fidelity Authorization & Release form

here: Msg #492057 (This is the "modified" version - at least as of this date.)



 
Find a Notary  Notary Supplies  Terms  Privacy Statement  Help/FAQ  About  Contact Us  Archive  NRI Insurance Services
 
Notary Rotary® is a trademark of Notary Rotary, Inc. Copyright © 2002-2013, Notary Rotary, Inc.  All rights reserved.
500 New York Ave, Des Moines, IA 50313.