Posted by CarolF/NC on 11/10/13 12:34am Msg #492169
How many people sent the SPW/NNA Code of Conduct to their
State employment or labor offices?
I know of 7 states now that state we will need to be paid as employees as that code of conduct clearly classifies us as employees. With all the benefits of a part-time or full time employee depending on your state, which include employer paid mandated training, SS and medicare and employment tax deductions. Can we start a running log below of the states that will classify you as an employee?
I'm thinking does NNA really want to pay me benefits and pay for all of my supplies and materials and I get state disability, medicare and SS too. Heck maybe I will jump on that ship.
Are there any states that differentiate certain occupations as "contract employees vs employees?"
Reply by CarolF/NC on 11/10/13 12:35am Msg #492170
and some states require the employer to pay for "any and all
work materials or supplies.
Reply by Marian_in_CA on 11/10/13 1:36am Msg #492171
The state assumes that any relationship is tha tof an employee unless proven otherwise.
Of VERY interesting note is toward the end of that page:
"Even where there is an absence of control over work details, an employer-employee relationship will be found if (1) the principal retains pervasive control over the operation as a whole, (2) the worker’s duties are an integral part of the operation, and (3) the nature of the work makes detailed control unnecessary. (Yellow Cab Cooperative v. Workers Compensation Appeals Board (1991) 226 Cal.App.3d 1288)"
And, since the person who is the chair of the SPW (Sam Zaki) herself stated that the notary is "the most crucial" part of the process... a quote the NNA has been pushing all summer, that kind of clinches it. Besides, all of the material on the SPW site are using the wording that implies employment, not independent contractors.
It'll be interesting to see how many of these companies actually decide to foot the bill for converting people to employees. Employees are more expensive than contractors, and much more complicated to handle on a remote basis.
Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/10/13 7:57am Msg #492173
Let's not forget the requirement to provide
healthcare coverage for all of us.
Reply by CarolF/NC on 11/10/13 9:52am Msg #492180
maybe in FL not in most states if you are part-time or
an employee who works on temporary, seasonal or for a contracted period time
Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/10/13 10:26am Msg #492185
And who determines part time/full time status
there are a lot of people doing loan signings full time.
Again - IC vs. employee mentality/treatment
Reply by CarolF/NC on 11/10/13 11:13am Msg #492186
I'm talking about state laws regarding employees
the laws regarding benefits/taxes and what an employer must pay are determined by state law and include whether you are part-time and full-time and each state defines part-time and full-time differently. I believe in most states it is the department of labor who makes that determination. Some states have separate employment offices that make that determination.
Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/10/13 11:29am Msg #492189
My point being....what is this new group going to do
IF they end up with an immense number of notaries agreeing to play along with this "Agreement" ... but all those notaries adamantly state "I am full-time"
I, personally do this part time to supplement. But many do this work full time - it is there ONLY income - if enough of those notaries insist on that status because that's what they are - this group is now in the position to offer full-time benefits, including health coverage under the new health insurance laws - because these notaries, in their peabrain, are treated like, and considered, employees.
Just my thoughts on that part of it
Reply by MikeC/TX on 11/10/13 7:25pm Msg #492211
Re: And who determines part time/full time status
"there are a lot of people doing loan signings full time."
But most are not doing them for the same company more than 20 hours a week. Which makes you a part-time employee for a truckload of employers....
Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/10/13 7:39pm Msg #492216
BUT if al these companies fall under SPW
and I'm doing them for SPW -
Could end up full time...
Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/10/13 9:57pm Msg #492226
Re: BUT if al these companies fall under SPW
That's the piece I'm having trouble getting my head around. Could that also mean the employer tells you what assignments you have and when and where? It boggles the mind!
Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/11/13 3:10pm Msg #492282
Basically you have an unrecognized entity
telling you that no, you are NOT in business full time, you're in business part time - whether you put in 20 hours/week into your business or 40-60 hours/week (all things considered in running a business) - effectively impacting YOUR status as a business with the IRS.
No thanks.
JMO
Reply by John Tennant on 11/10/13 10:03pm Msg #492227
The employer does.
The United States Department of Labor does not set minimum hours of employment to determine who is part time or who is full time for any purpose except health benefits. They do use 30 hours or more as full time in regards to health benefits.
Reply by Linda_in_IN on 11/10/13 9:50am Msg #492179
States saying yes you are employee, please list in 1 thread
Carol, can you list in one post all the states you are aware of that have "officially" said the Code of Conduct places the individual in an employer/employee work relationship versus independent contractor in one thread those subject would be easily identifiable in a search? Yes I know that the main point of contention come from where the person is located instead of where the company (employer) is located, but I'm thinking by having all this in one thread, it would be helpful as a point of reference and comparison. Would be a quick retort to a response of "but we aren't located there" or "the main office is located _________".
Reply by CarolF/NC on 11/10/13 9:55am Msg #492181
I wish I could. I'm hoping those who have that information
will post here
NC is one, When I collect them all from social media posts, etc I will post them with a disclaimer that I have not verified each and every state myself
Reply by jnew on 11/12/13 11:32am Msg #492385
Re: States saying yes you are employee, please list in 1 thread
Whether you are working as a contractor or an employee, the hiring authority has the right to assure that the work is done according to its standards. Construction companies hire subcontractors who are non-employees and are paid according to their contract. I have never heard the argument that a subcontractor had to be an employee of the general contractor in order to be held to a quality standard for the job done by the subcontractor. Another kernel for thought is this: How can you be considered an employee is you work as a vendor for multiple companies. If this were true, I am employed by over 130 companies. or did I miss something.
Reply by Jose Ramon Maestre on 11/10/13 10:13am Msg #492184
In states and jurisdictions where you are required to file an income tax return, I would venture to say that under the code of conduct and other SPW requirements, you would be considered an employee. The main agency to be concerned about is the IRS. Although the SPW seems to have thought through many concerns, i believe they failed in this area. They may have opened a can of worms. I know my state of Florida, you would still be an independent contractor. The best answer would be to contact your individual states Dept of Labor. I have fowarded a copy to the State of Florida for their opinion. Will post answer when received, however Florida does not have an income tax requirement.
Reply by CarolF/NC on 11/10/13 11:19am Msg #492187
In most states if your employer is treating you as an
independent contractor but you would qualify as an "employee" under the labor laws, you file a complaint, they go after the employer (punish them), they force them to classify you properly as an employee and pay you the benefits under the law of that state. You may also sue them for back pay and benefits lost. Taxes are another issue. That is your state taxing agency and the IRS who will want their revenue share. Again, each state has different laws. California is very employee friendly. North Carolina is very employer friendly.
Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/10/13 11:25am Msg #492188
It's also illegal in some states for employers to
pay employees separate IC fees. - you're either an employee or you're not.
Reply by Notarysigner on 11/10/13 11:58am Msg #492191
Well....what about employee(s) of Title company who
prepare loan Docs AND then acts as a IC and sign (notarize) those SAME Docs after hours. Yes, they hold those Docs on their desk until they get off work AND then go and do the signing themselves. Talk about "employee" friendly.
Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/10/13 12:18pm Msg #492192
Are you sure about that? You're sure they're paid both ways
And I *did* say in some states.
Reply by Notarysigner on 11/10/13 12:52pm Msg #492194
Carol....What about employees, Escrow Officers
working for TC who prepare loan Docs AND then acts as a IC and sign (notarize) those SAME Docs after hours. Yes, they hold those Docs on their desk until they get off work AND then go and do the signing themselves. Talk about "employee" friendly.
Reply by MikeC/TX on 11/10/13 7:34pm Msg #492213
Re: Carol....What about employees, Escrow Officers
It's called "moonlighting", James...
According to IRS regulations as we all understand them (and it would be nice if a tax professional weighed in on this), if the employer insists that the moonlighter adhere to the SPW standards, the moonlighter loses the IC status and is now working overtime...
Reply by Notarysigner on 11/10/13 8:00pm Msg #492218
Good s n/m
Reply by Notarysigner on 11/10/13 8:04pm Msg #492219
Good how Mike so do you think
the moonlighter will turn around and complain that their 1 1/2 didn't match their salary? LOL
hERE AGAIN, It less in my neck of the woods, we're aware of the "underground" economy. These folks are NOT paying taxes on this income (no W-9, NO 1099) and it will continue.
Reply by John Tennant on 11/10/13 10:06pm Msg #492228
Re: Good how Mike so do you think
The moonlighter is actually an employee on overtime. Both the moonlighter and T/C are taking a huge chance if either gets audited. Very expensive fines in this area. JMHO
Reply by Marazz/AZ on 11/10/13 12:50pm Msg #492193
Anyone can file a form SS-8 and request that the IRS determine whether they should be considered an employee or independent contractor. I know of an appraiser that did this, after being screwed (in their opinion) by a large Los Angeles appraisal firm. The firm owner ended up owing so much money it put him out of business.
This is for tax purposes, of course, but barring state laws that explicitly say something else, it's probably a good place to start for anyone who seriously wants to pursue it. You only need one ruling in your favor that costs a title company or lender some $$$, and the wind would quickly shift directions.
Any company that hires you and insists on the SPW standards n/m
Reply by MW/VA on 11/10/13 8:22pm Msg #492221
You used the word "hire". I have never used that word
in this biz. That come's from employee mentality, IMO. I'm an independent contractor, and those who call me "contract" (verbally & written through a confirmation) for my services. I've signed many ICA's. I'm not buying into this move by the NNA, and I'm not going to have any part of it. I have a business license, and have my biz set up as an LLC. I don't plan to be anyone's employee.
Reply by JandB on 11/10/13 9:19pm Msg #492223
splitting hairs. They offer me a contract and I accept
v.verb
To engage the services of (a person) for a fee; employ.
To grant the services of or the temporary use of for a fee. hired himself out as a cook; hired out the cottage for the summer. To obtain work. She hired on as a deck hand. He hired out as a photographer. n.noun
Reply by Shawn Choyce on 11/11/13 5:03pm Msg #492285
How did you determine your state would consider you an employee did you contact the labor board?
Reply by Shawn Choyce on 11/11/13 5:12pm Msg #492287
How can we organize ourselves so we can fight this?