Posted by MAC/WA on 11/5/13 1:25pm
Msg #491405

WA Employment Security Dept. has requested to see SPW docs

I emailed our State Employment Security Dept, Employer Services Division yesterday and gave them examples of what is in the Code of Conduct asking if I am being treated as an employee or independent contractor. After a few back and forth emails, this morning they requested to see all SPW documents. I gave them the webiste to download them.

Please, please, please, contact your state dept. and do the same. All it took was looking them up on the webiste and emailing them.

Reply by MAC/WA on 11/5/13 1:27pm
Msg #491407

Here is our email exchange

Hi Martha



The last paragraph is the one that I’d like to know more about. Do you have anything in writing about the things you are writing about? A copy of Code of Conduct and all the standards or most of them you mentioned. You can either fax what you have and I’ll review them and I will also push them forward for further review.



Gary Kolonja

Gary Kolonja | UITA
Employment Security Department | Olympia AMC

PO BOX 9046 Olympia, WA 98507-9046
( 360-902-9237 | 6 360-902-9201 | + Email: [e-mail address]









From: Martha Cesar [mailto:[e-mail address]]
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 9:51 AM
To: ESD GP UI Tax Olympia AMC
Subject: Re: Am I an independent contractor or employee



All banks and nonbanks are responding to a federal CFPB directive (2012-03) (Consumer Financial Protection Bureau). This is a result of the Dodd-Frank Act. This directive tells banks and nonbanks to oversee their business relationships with service providers in a manner that ensures compliance with federal consumer financial law. The directive is careful not to step over the line as far as contractors vs. employees, but the standards control all our activities relatied to the contract.



A group of banks, title and escrow companies-- the largest in the country, (BofAm, Chase, etc) got together and devised several documents affecting notary signing specialists, that is notaries public all over the country who are certified to conduct mortgage signings. So yes, it affects more than me. Two wrongs don’t make a right.



While the annual exam/certification and background check doesn’t bother me, the 10-year background checks will assign points to criminal offenses and driving violations. We are contractors, what businesses do you know of that keep track of the the speeding tickets of its contractors and uses them to fire the contractor. Contractors drive to work sites all the time, we are no different.



Signing their Code of Conduct is mandatory to be eligible for assignments, mind you these are the largest banks and title companies in the country. It reads like an employee handbook. In addition to what I mentioned yesterday and above, we are prohibited from “colluding” with other notaries on fees, there are prohibitions and limitations on how we advertise or market our services that includes the website our businesses may own, we are also prohibited from refusing an assignment even if there is a fee dispute with the company for a previous assignment. We are told HOW to schedule our assigments, and told that the printing of loan documents cannot be delegated to anyone not even an assistant. There are more standards than I am mentioning here, but these are examples of those that control our every move. These standards go into effect Jan 1, 2014.



If they treat us as employees, we are entitled to workers comp coverage and they should be paying social security taxes for us.



Martha Cesar





From: ESD GP UI Tax Olympia AMC

Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 8:58 AM

To: Martha Cesar

Subject: RE: Am I an independent contractor or employee



Hi Martha



Who is setting up these standards? A certain employer or the industry in general? Is there any law or regulation that have been passed recently regarding these practices that you know of? My first impression after I read your email is that you are still an independent contractor since most likely these practices will be enforced for other Notary Public as well.



Gary Kolonja

Gary Kolonja | UITA
Employment Security Department | Olympia AMC

PO BOX 9046 Olympia, WA 98507-9046
( 360-902-9237 | 6 360-902-9201 | + Email: [e-mail address]









From: Martha Cesar [mailto:[e-mail address]]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2013 5:26 PM
To: ESD GP UI Tax Olympia AMC
Subject: Am I an independent contractor or employee



I am a self-employed, small business registered with DOR and voluntarily pay for workers’ compensation. I am a certified Notary Public with certifications to perform mortgage loan signings. I receive work orders to complete the signing of mortgage loan documents from title and escrow companies for which I am paid a fee once completed. I (along with other notaries) are facing new standards for conducting these signings that include:



- annual training from a third party

- annual certification from a third party

- a written script that must be used while conducting mortgage signings that will be subject to monitoring and penalties to ensure that the script is followed.

- a requirement that I may not refused to conduct a second signing, (usually necessary if a mistake) even if the mistake was not made by me.



These are a few of the preliminary standards that I am aware of. Do these new standards in any way constitute an employer/employee relationship?



Thanks for any help you can give me.



Martha Cesar

dba Seattle Mobile Notary

Reply by ikando on 11/5/13 1:31pm
Msg #491409

Re: Here is our email exchange

Let us know what they say after they read it.

Reply by Christine/OK on 11/5/13 6:56pm
Msg #491464

Yes, Martha, please let us know what they said. Thanks. n/m

Reply by MAC/WA on 11/5/13 7:52pm
Msg #491472

WA State licenses, certifies or registers its business profe

ssions (e.g., doctors, lawyers, accountants, landscapers, notaries, etc.) Notaries are CERTIFIED in Washington state. I am also a CERTIFIED NSA. So talking to our WA State Employment Security Dept. about MY certifications was not only correct, but appropriate.

I know a little about what I am doing: I spent 26+ years working in and around state government. I worked for 2 governors, 9 years in the state legislature and 15 years as a contract lobbyist.

But most importantly, I've stopped whining and complaining and am trying to use what I know to DO something.

Reply by Christine/OK on 11/5/13 8:22pm
Msg #491476

We need & value your expertise, Martha! Thanks for sharing

the actions you are taking regarding this situation.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/5/13 9:54pm
Msg #491482

I think the point here is...

you may be certified by the state of Washington as a notary (thought it was commissioned but I could be wrong)

But no state recognizes this "certified nsa" standing - it's not a state thing - it's an industry/NNA and all other certifiers thing. It's a designated coined a long time ago by some notaries and it caught on - it has no state validation at all - in fact, some notaries refuse to use it.

Hope they help you - from a notary standpoint they should - from a NSA standpoint, probably not.

Reply by BobbiCT on 11/5/13 2:18pm
Msg #491420

Remember to keep your titles straight ...

This is NOT a national code for NOTARIES PUBLIC, who are PUBLIC OFFICIALS governed and commissioned by each State.

It is a code for "Signing Agents," who are not Public Officials; however, the Signing Agenty MAY also hold a notary commission from one or more states.

Reply by MAC/WA on 11/5/13 2:29pm
Msg #491426

Call yourself whatever you want. I made it clear I am a NP w n/m

Reply by MAC/WA on 11/5/13 2:32pm
Msg #491428

Re: Call yourself whatever you want. I made it clear I am a NP w

with certifications to conduct loan signings. I also state: " I (along with other notaries) are facing new standards for conducting these signings..." Read the emaiils dimwit. If you are a signing agent and want to conduct signings you will be subject to these new standards.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/5/13 2:39pm
Msg #491429

Absolutely no need for namecalling - and you certainly

shouldn't be calling Bobbi a dimwit. Should watch who you're insulting.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 11/5/13 3:51pm
Msg #491436

Bobbi has more smarts in her pinky fingernail than you have

in your entire body!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/5/13 4:02pm
Msg #491438

Re: Call yourself whatever you want. I made it clear I am a NP w

Wow, Martha. I was really impressed until I read your response to Bobbi/CT, who happens to be one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum. I agree that the insults are uncalled for. And I think she has a point. A notary public who does not do loan signings is not impacted in any way. (That doesn't mean to say that the notary involved can't call themselves whatever they want.)

One point I wanted to make is the use of "certified" in your communications. There is no official governmental certification anywhere for notaries public, just those provided by any organization or individual who wants to issue one for whatever purpose. So that might be a little misleading to someone completely unfamiliar to our business - and perhaps an important detail. Otherwise, I applaud your effort. This is certainly an area that needs some clarification. I think many of us will be eager to hear the outcome.

Reply by MAC/WA on 11/5/13 4:04pm
Msg #491439

No one interested in topic? I will post no more.

WA notaries, my email address is [e-mail address]

Reply by JanelWI on 11/5/13 5:48pm
Msg #491451

Re: No one interested in topic? I will post no more.

Does a title rep who goes in to close a loan suddenly become a "notary public"?. No. Does a nurse who changes a bedpan suddenly lose his/her title and become an aid? No.

The last time I took my notarial law test, there was not one word about loan documents in there. Surprised? I suspect not.

The point is we should not be called Notaries. Notaries by pure definition do not close loans. Professional Document Signing Agents do. We are also not defined purely by the tools we use to do our job as signing agents. We have always been Professional Document Signing Agents. With that title comes some specific tools for the job and a notary commission is one of them. Why send two people to a signing when we can kill two birds with one stone?

I have always made this distinction. When I worked in finance and had to notarize documents pertaining to titles; did I suddenly lose my Senior Finance Rep title? No.....it was the tool I needed for my job and the company made sure I had one. There was no fanfare at the time, and no one suggested I read the notarial law statutes. It was rather scary the way everyone took it blindly for granted.

I have built my business as a professional document signing agent, not a notary public and I make sure the borrowers know that we not only adhere to the laws of the state but I am also knowledgeable to the transaction and will navigate them properly through their signing. It is a very important tool very much like the key to my car. I can't get very far, if I don't have the right key to start my car. The notary commission, however, does not define all aspects of my business, nor what I am worth.

I personally believe that the social indoctrination drilled in over and over of "notary" in this business has been for monetary reasons and nothing more. We are important as long as we come cheap. General notary work does not pay all that well even in the states that pay more than WI. So, when they offer $65 or even $85 they think we should be salivating at the offer. We were a cheap alternative and we already had a commission. We as "notaries" were used, and now the name is no longer good enough, as we can see, because it no longer serves their purpose or agenda. So...now they want to call us Certified Signing Specialists. Yet, they continue to pass over our importance to the loan signing industry...conveniently; and create this black hole as if we are the void for which all information security is falling through on a daily basis. So they point the finger at us and away from themselves. So! let's change the name and make them pay for the title now so the lender can look like they are doing all they can to negate information security risk......this tit for tat over what to call ones self...is not the core issue. Instead of getting upset, we need unity, clarity, and most of all real recognition. How can they speak on our behalf and continue to tell us what we are worth when they don't walk even two miles in our shoes? Because...they don't really care about what we think. Or, if they do, they sold out.

Those of us that do this to keep the light's on know very well we are much more in addition to this very important office we hold. I take neither for granted. But, I am primarily still working in the mortgage industry and hold the tools I need to do the job, to continue to maximize my potential and marketability with new tools to widen my options for new income.

At the end of the day this changes nothing in terms of fees, our worth, or current recognition. We will now be asked for our papers to prove we are certified and be asked to do jobs for $XX. When we don't, they will call us back if they can get the fee approved. The same old tired dance just got a new pair of shoes and one size will fit all, or you don't work. Same crap, different color.

If they want to come up with something truly original; they can work to create industry standards that actually protect, raise, praise, and recognize us rather than pin the donkey on our backs yet again; and blame the "notary" for industry related issues; instead of taking responsibility for what should have been implemented long ago and maybe, just maybe say.... "We're Sorry".

Reply by MikeC/TX on 11/5/13 6:28pm
Msg #491457

Like... n/m

Reply by BobbiCT on 11/6/13 6:49am
Msg #491510

Thank you all

for your support and kind words. Over the years I've developed rhino skin, particularly if I opt to post on a public board.

Well stated JanelWI. Over many years and nationally I've worked with attorneys and others who routinely close residential and commercial loans without being a notary public; the notary is called in only to notarize a few specific documents and leave - nothing more than that. Titles are different, but the key is the notary commission has always been an ancillary part of this industry. My guess is this will shake out with a new industry title and standards for the "job," separate from the individual state requirements for the ancillary notarial services - just like when the National Association of Signing Agents spread nationwide (to be purchased and re-named "Notary Signing Agents").

Off to an American Land Title Association Best Practices seminar on NPI and reporting requirements for security breaches "for dimwits."

Reply by MikeC/TX on 11/5/13 5:00pm
Msg #491445

Re: Call yourself whatever you want. I made it clear I am a NP w

"Read the emaiils dimwit. If you are a signing agent and want to conduct signings you will be subject to these new standards."

Whoa - back up there. That was uncalled for. Bobbie is anything but a dimwit; she knows what she's talking about. Beyond that, whether ANY signing agents "will be subject to these new standards" is still up in the air - this is an effort by the XYZ to grab control of the industry, and there are a bunch of legal issues that haven't been addressed yet.

Reply by CarolF/NC on 11/5/13 7:20pm
Msg #491467

What's Still Up in the Air...Looks Like a Done Deal

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/29/dc-natl-notary-assoc-idUSnBw295730a+100+BSW20131029

Reply by MikeC/TX on 11/5/13 11:12pm
Msg #491498

RE: Looks like a done deal

It ain't over until the fat lady sings...

There are a number of legal issues that haven't been addressed, the least of which are the IRS implications of what it means for a hiring party to direct how an independent contractor should do their job. They've announced themselves as the final arbiter of all things related to loan signings, but the CFPB hasn't approved it yet. In addition to complaining to the local state DOS, complaints should be made to the CFPB:

http://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/

Complaints should be focused - just deal with the facts, don't get emotional or you'll just be dismissed as another crazy person...

Reply by Christine/OK on 11/6/13 6:23am
Msg #491508

As always, Thanks Mike! n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 11/6/13 4:24am
Msg #491502

Appearances can be deceiving, we all know this. It is not

just a cliche'.

Mike is right - the fat lady is not even in the wings. It is up to us to make sure she leaves before hitting center stage.

Reply by Christine/OK on 11/6/13 5:41am
Msg #491506

[e-mail address] n/m

Reply by Christine/OK on 11/6/13 6:24am
Msg #491509

Wendy Kamenshine is the CFPB Ombudsman n/m

Reply by Matt_VA on 11/6/13 10:38am
Msg #491556

I did that in VA last week and was rebuffed by them. However, that is not a reason to not do that. I agree completely MAC/WA!