Posted by Gerry_VT on 2/12/05 12:39am
Msg #20341

Sample Digitally Signed Document and Request for Comments

A few days ago there was a short discussion about how to digitally sign a document. At my web site, http://users.adelphia.net/~ashtong I have posted a Word document that I have digitally signed, in case anyone wants to see what one looks like. One must save the document, not just open it, to check the digital signature.

The document consists of a specimen detached acknowledgement for a digital document. I would be interested in comments on the acknowledgement. I don't expect to have to actually take a digital acknowledgement any time soon, but it might be interesting to consider what the pitfalls might be.

Reply by Lee/AR on 2/12/05 11:29pm
Msg #20443

Good grief! I haven't a clue what I'm looking at!

Reply by Gerry_VT on 2/13/05 11:13am
Msg #20464

There are two basic problems with digitally signed documents. If it were a paper document without acknowledgement wording, you could use a rubber stamp to put the acknowledgement wording at the end, but altering a digital document in any way would invalidate the signature, so you can't add the acknowledgement to the existing document.

Also, if it were a paper document, you could staple a loose acknowledgement to it, but you can't staple computer files together. So the specimen acknowledgement on my web page is my idea of how to describe a signed computer file well enough that people can tell which computer file the acknowledgement goes with.

Reply by Pacific_John on 2/13/05 12:01am
Msg #20446

What the hey!!! Pitfalls, how about a great abyss!! Not for me.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 2/13/05 11:16am
Msg #20465

Pacific_John wrote: "What the hey!!! Pitfalls, how about a great abyss!! Not for me."

For the next few years, I agree. I was interested in seeing if other people are as wary as I am, or if someone knew of a solution I hadn't heard about.

Reply by Bobbi in CT on 2/13/05 1:39pm
Msg #20498

Simple problem well stated by Gerry..

In 2000 when digital documents, PKI was ALL the RAGE, the must-have to survive technology and notaries need this .... it fizzled out in 2002.

I have a "smart card" from a company that is now defunct. Used to demonstrate it. Simple, plug into anyone's UBS port, log in etc.

Practical problems
1. Most people (lawyers particularly) did not want to sign digitally. Cool to watch, but no thank you not for me today. In 2006, still getting the same answer.
2. Once encrypted by me nothing could be changed. Oops .... what about those other two signers after my notarization. Add another document to be attached to the first document as part of the first "sealed" document, then add a third document etc. etc.
3. Why bother? Paper document sent via FedEx in 2000 still made the rounds to three states for "wet" signature and notarization and got back to originating lawfirm in a short time. Easier yet, Emailed or faxed to each party, signed in "triplicate original" with an effective date (date all parties agree by conference call, sign their personal original with that date [effective date]) and then paper documents make the rounds. Commercial lenders and title companies just held everything "in escrow" for a day, while parties proceeded as though deal was complete.

It will be interesting to see how many average homeowners or "subprime" borrowers are willing to trust their BIGGEST financial commitment in their lifetime to the internet, particularly with everyone screaming from the rooftops about identity theft, hackers, and "do you really know who is on the receiving end of your data" issues.

Reply by Gerry_VT on 2/13/05 1:55pm
Msg #20504

Re: Simple problem well stated by Gerry..

Bobbi/CT wrote in part "2. Once encrypted by me nothing could be changed. Oops .... what about those other two signers after my notarization. "

I must admit I oversimplified things just a bit. In the case of Microsoft Word, as many people as you want can sign without invalidating the preceeding signatures. The trick is, they must already be mentioned in the body of the document before the first party signs. So for example, if someone already includes acknowledgement wording, the notary can sign without disturbing a borrower's signature, but the venue, name of the notary, and everything else in the acknowledgement certificate must be known before the borrower signs.