Posted by Korey Humphreys on 2/12/05 10:20pm
Msg #20439

Someone to listen while I blow off steam!!!!

This has nothing to do with Notary Public work directly. However I am a notary public.

I have this client that I've done numerous pro bono paralegal work for. I did everything pretty much pro bono because we were co-workers at a part-time job I had.

I charged her a one time fee of $350 for approx. 30 hours of legal research work. I researched chapter 13 bankruptcy, and organized everything for the client in a binder.

Well, needless to say, everything was paid on time.... no problems. Then, one day at work she got fired for showing up,,,, once again late. I'm not her boss, not my call! She asked me to quit also, and I told her I needed the job and can't quit.

Three weeks later (yesterday) I got a notice from a local attorney stating that he sent a letter to a U.S. Bankruptcy Judge located in Worcester, Massachusetts. The letter was also sent to the U.S. Trustee's Office.

The client I helped is saying that I told her that I was going to handle her chapter 13 bankruptcy case. In addition, and even more damaging, she pops out a letter with no ties to me, and says I gave it to her. The letter stated that I was representing her for 350.00!

I'm afraid now that I'm going to lose my commission as a Notary Public, and possibly be put up on trial because of her crap!!! I'm 21 years old, and know the difference between UPL and research!!

The attorney is saying that it is likely that I have engaged in Larceny, Fraud, and Unauthorized Practice of Law. HOWEVER no proof exists. BUT the attorey has already sent out the letters to the US Bankruptcy Judge, and the U.S. Trustee's office.

I just can't believe this!!!! Thank you for reading my dilema!!!!

Reply by JMHIER_CA on 2/12/05 10:24pm
Msg #20440

Yowza! That really stinks! Sounds to me like you need to get yourself an attorney, and FAST!
Don't let them intimidate you, especially if the client fabricated a document from you.

Reply by BarbaraL/CA on 2/12/05 10:37pm
Msg #20441

WOW! Did you give her a receipt for the $350 stating it was for "Research"? Seems that would be proof. If I were you I'd get an attorney.

Reply by Reginald Wilks on 2/13/05 1:46am
Msg #20448

If it happened the way you say I would have myself lawyer right now. Then I think I would ask the lawyer about a counter suit.

Reply by Kathy on 2/13/05 8:11am
Msg #20453

Just because some attorney sends you a letter stating he sent letters about you, does not mean it is actually true. She could be trying to intimidate you. As long as you don't think (and are pretty sure of your actions) that you did not do anything wrong, contact the agencies yourself and see if something was filed against you, or simply have the attorney provide proof of his intentions. Usually, you would have been cc' d on any suite of intent filed espically with the Attorney General's office and if he is a reputable lawyer, you would have recieved this. I am not a lawyer, but work with one, and just seeing his everyday acts, this sounds like a definate intimidation procedure. Double check you work or receipts, and you can always ask someone at the free legal aid office in your area.

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 2/13/05 11:39am
Msg #20468

YES!!! The attorney also sent me two copies of two difference receipts. My reciepts/invoice clearly read Chapter 13 Research Fee.

She got two recipets because she paid me 300 on day, and the remaining 50 dollars the next.

Reply by Ted_MI on 2/13/05 8:16am
Msg #20455

Korey,

Just out of curiosity, with reference to the $350 you charged her, did you send her an invoice (and in addition keep a copy) and on that invoice specify what the charge was for? If so, I believe that would help your cause.

For those of you who don't know "pro bono" is a latin phrase and means "for the public good". It is probably short for "pro bono publico".

Reply by HisHughness on 2/13/05 8:31am
Msg #20457

From your description of what you did, I would have no problem finding that you engaged in the Unauthorized Practice of Law. You did "research" for a person using the facts from her specific case to suggest what she needed to do in her bankruptcy, and prepared the papers for her. Just what do think it is a lawyer -- including the one you work for -- is doing when he takes a client into his office and closes the door?

Reply by HisHughness on 2/13/05 8:45am
Msg #20458

One other thing. You say "they have no proof."

Something is "proved" in law when you make the trier of facts -- judge, jury, administrative hearing officer -- believe a version of events. You do that by presenting evidence, which is what I suspect you meant to say that they supposedly don't have.

Again, based on your version of events, they appear to have evidence: The "notebook" you prepared, the letter, the testimony of the person you assisted, are both, I suspect, more than enough to make a trier of fact believe you crossed over the line.

If your case is referred to the bar's UPL committee, I agree with earlier posters that you need to get yourself a lawyer. If I were you, I don't think I would go to a part-time paralegal and ask her to "research" what I should do to defend myself.

Reply by kmnotary_CA on 2/13/05 8:52am
Msg #20459

Reading this makes me think of the many times people ask us which form to fill out, what type of notory document they need, etc.

All of these are, to my understanding, illegal practices of law (for us non-attorneys).

"Researching" and preparing a folder for use in legal proceedings definetly sounds like crossing the line to me-the client didn't know what forms she needed, just as some of our clients don't know what they need. And, we aren't supposed to tell them. To me, this is the bottom line.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 2/13/05 9:17am
Msg #20460

I've A Question for You, Hugh.

What do you think of the following practice? There are a few on this & other message boards who deign to respond to legal questions from posters on this & other boards by "researching" the answer for the questioner on the Internet. They then bring the "definitive answer" back to the board in the form of either their own opinion without disclaimer or post what they've found verbatim from a web site. BTW, many times the legal queries being responded to are from other states than those of the "researcher". Are these individuals brushing up against UPL or is it because of the informal nature of a forum such as this it would be exempt from UPL consideration? Your thoughts...please.

Reply by HisHughness on 2/13/05 9:48am
Msg #20461

Re: I've A Question for You, Hugh.

The first amendment gives everyone, even liberals, the right to state their opinion, including their opinion of what the law is. That's why you can say with impunity, "I THINK that guy acts like he's from a Missouri trailer park," and you cannot say, without fear of facing a slander suit, "That guy acts like he's from a Missouri trailer park." One is an opinion, the other is a statement of fact.

You face a charge of UPL when you: 1a) State an opinion of what the law is, or 1b) suggest a course of action tailored to an individual's circumstances and based upon supposedly relevant law; and 2) are compensated for that advice. The clearest example for NPs is that we are charged by the law with knowing what a notarial certificate should contain. However, when we take what we are required as notaries to know and apply that to an individual set of circumstances, such as whether to use a jurat or an acknowledgement, then we have crossed the line.

As far as I know, nobody on this board is charging for the advice so freely dispensed. If anyone is, and if they are charging by the word, Brenda has already paid off her summer home by now.

Reply by BrendaTX on 2/13/05 9:57am
Msg #20462

Re: I've A Question for You, Hugh.

Hugh said: *As far as I know, nobody on this board is charging for the advice so freely dispensed. If anyone is, and if they are charging by the word, Brenda has already paid off her summer home by now.*

Readers, fill in the blank:

And, on the other hand, if Hugh is charging by the ________________ so freely dispensed, he's got billions by now.
----
I was going to enlist a multiple choice list to make my point, but that would have put me into the position of being rather unkind.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/13/05 1:25pm
Msg #20493

Re: I've A Question for You, Hugh.

I believe the polite euphamism is "cow patty"

Reply by CarolynCO on 2/13/05 4:04pm
Msg #20528

Re: I've A Question for You, Hugh.

Cow pie, as well.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 2/13/05 1:01pm
Msg #20487

Thanks for the FREE Legal Opinion, Hugh!

BTW, how did you discern I live in a trailer park?

Reply by HisHughness on 2/13/05 2:08pm
Msg #20509

Re: Thanks for the FREE Legal Opinion, Hugh!

Dennis, some people could turn a mansion into a trailer park. You're not one of them. A "Salute to the Thumbscrew and Rack" exhibit, maybe, but not a trailer park.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 2/13/05 3:00pm
Msg #20512

BTW...

...the check is in the mail.

Reply by MarleneM/USNA on 2/14/05 9:31am
Msg #20561

Re: I've A Question for You, Hugh.

Hugh, we've been asked dozens of times by customers if what they are doing in a certain situation constitutes the unauthorized practice of law. Rather than get into the position ourselves of giving legal advice that could bring us grief, we usually reply that if the individual is questioning his or her involvement, then he or she has probably already answered the question.

We would like to know, for our own information and perhaps to help with customer inquiries, what code of law your 1a), 1b), and 2) definitions are from. We realize it is from Texas law (Georgia law? can't remember where you practiced), but it would helps us better understand the whole issue of UPL to know where it is addressed in a particular code.

Thank you very much.

Marlene Miller
United States Notary Association
[e-mail address]

Reply by PAW_Fl on 2/14/05 11:35am
Msg #20575

Re: I've A Question for You, Hugh.

I'm not Hugh (thank goodness ) but...

For your own education and edification, you may wish to review the following:

http://www.abanet.org/cpr/model-def/taskforce_rpt_429.pdf

http://www.abanet.org/cpr/model-def/model_def_statutes.pdf

Reply by MarleneM/USNA on 2/15/05 8:09am
Msg #20651

Re: I've A Question for You, Hugh.

Thanks, PAW! Exactly as requested. . .

Reply by Bobbi in CT on 2/13/05 10:47am
Msg #20463

As a paralegal ...

Sadly for you, I agree with Ted and HisHughness. Get yourself a lawyer, quick!

1. Pro Bono. I do a great deal of pro bono work - through my lawfirm, which does not charge clients for the attorney and paralegal time, and through the Conn. Bar Association / Statewide Legal Services (clinics where multiple paralegals prepare everything and one attorney Reviews). By definition it is at NO Charge (free), for people who cannot afford a lawyer under specific income guidelines, and under the supervision or review of an attorney. Since you did not attorney review your work and you charged a fee for it, it's not "pro bono."

2. "Legal" research for bankruptcy sounds like crossing the UPL line. Sounds like YOU made the decision which form of bankruptcy, which case law applies, which forms to use, how to proceed, and what would be the best information for those forms. UPL.

You are young and meant well. This is an example of what I tell aspiring paralegals in their first year ethics class, "Bad things can happen to well-intentioned good people." I would worry more about your career as a "paralegal' than your notary commission. If this is published in your state Bar association trade papers and magazines (like in CT), no law firm will want to hire you and, if gets to Court, you get to be one of those precedent setting cases that will be used in paralegal classes as an example of what not to do. Not what you want your name to be remembered for nationwide for years to come. Sounds like you will be out lawyer's fees and costs (paying your own and your "friends"), paying back the $350 and probably "damages" for any financial loss your "friend" had because of her reliance on your research and "advice."

I do wish you luck, but you put yourself in a bad situation. I am surprised that none of your paralegal classes pointed out the pitfalls of "helping" someone with a "legal" problem. There are tons of cases and examples nationwide to choose from as to why a paralegal, legal secretary, or notary should be Very Careful. Something I also used to tell students,"A little knowledge can go a long way - the wrong way."

Reply by CarolynCO on 2/13/05 12:18pm
Msg #20475

Re: As a paralegal ...

Very well written, Bobbi.

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 2/13/05 11:44am
Msg #20470

no no no no..... I did not know the facts of her case. She did not have a pending case at that time. What happened was that she came to me and asked me if I could represent her with her case. I told her no, i'm not an attorney.

I did tell her that I could research the basic chapter 13 laws and information and provide to her what my research revealed, and where she could find it. That's all I did. I looked up information and put everything together neatly in a binder. That was it.

I never answered any questions. I just found the information such as Bankruptcy rules of court and put them in the binder as well as information as to whom can apply.

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 2/13/05 11:54am
Msg #20471

Furthermore, she asked me to look up chapter 13. I did not suggest to her that she should file chapter 13. She's unfamilar with the internet, and how to look up things. So, as her "Friend" I went to search engines, looked up chapter 13 information printed it out, and punched holes in it, and then placed it in a binder.

To date, she still has nothing pending before the Bankruptcy court. I called the court, and the U.S. Trustee's office as soon as I got the information to clear my name. The court stated that they have nothing on file regarding my client.

If I would have gone to the local library and checked out a book for her to read on Bankruptcy, would that be the Unauthorized practice of law?????

Reply by HisHughness on 2/13/05 12:07pm
Msg #20473

Korey asks:

***If I would have gone to the local library and checked out a book for her to read on Bankruptcy, would that be the Unauthorized practice of law?????***

I will assume that your question is asked in a sincere attempt for enlightenment, rather than to be argumentative.

If you had checked out a book on Chapter 13 and handed it to her, you would not have been practicing law. If, on the other hand, you had checked out a book on Chapter 13, gone through it and extracted the information that you thought would give her what she needed to file and prosecute a Chapter 13 bankruptcy, handed it to her and asked for a $350 check, that would be practicing law. It sounds like you came much closer to doing the latter than you did the former.

A lawyer can get into trouble, including criminal conduct, in more ways than any other profession. That risk is multiplied many times over by a lay person intruding into the practice of law.

I can speak with some objectivity on this, Korey. I'm not protecting my professional turf, because I haven't practiced law for more than 20 years, I'm retired from it now, and even before I retired I spent most of my professional life as a journalist, not a lawyer. Furthermore, I now earn my living through a profession that is affiliated with the law but that does not involve the practice of law. It sounds like you crossed the line.

Reply by HisHughness on 2/13/05 12:27pm
Msg #20478

I just re-read my earlier comment about checking out a book. Please note: I should have said you did the latter, not the former. Gives an entirely new meaning to the message. Sorry about the sloppy editing.

Reply by Bobbi in CT on 2/13/05 12:57pm
Msg #20486

Hard to prove

If she decides to press the issue, it will be hard to prove. It's your word against hers.
What if she says she used the materials that you provided for $350 and her bankruptcy petition was rejected? It's a fine line and, again, I wish you luck.

You stated "...they have nothing on file regarding my client." From a Connecticut perspective, I suggest you not call her a "client" - rather a "friend" or a "customer." The issue will boil down to semantics - was she a client that you gave legal advice to (by selecting and preparing a $350 binder for a bankruptcy case) or a "friend" you were trying to help.

FYI. In Connecticut some solo practioner Lawyers only charge $279 for complete bankruptcy filings. Maybe when your "friend" went to a lawyer for help and showed him the "$350 binder" (doubt she mentioned your time to research and prepare it) he told her she was overcharged. We have a We the People forms service that also charges less than $350, which includes "typing" the Court filing paperwork. Research your area to see what local bankruptcy forms preparers and attorneys are charging - use this to show that $350 is "the average or less than average" fee charged by a non-attorney to provide forms or information.

Reply by Indiana Notary on 2/13/05 12:00pm
Msg #20472

Someone to listen while I blow off steam!!!!

Hello Korey,
You may want to visit http://www.50statenotary.com This is a web site for Victoria Ring, a certified paralegal and Notary. Victoria has written a book about how Notary's can start their own Bankruptcy Processing Company.

From what you stated, based on what Victoria has written, you have not done anything but help a customer (not client) gather information so she can file her own Bankruptcy.
There are many Notary's that start their own Bankruptcy Processing Company.
Good luck, you may have just stumbled onto a new source of incom.

Reply by Korey Humphreys on 2/13/05 1:30pm
Msg #20494

Re: MY UPDATE (KOREY)

Okay.... I just got off the phone with my attorney that I've used for personal matters a long time ago.

She stated that legal research in the manner that I did it was not UPL. Given the fact that the "client" and I were friends and co-workers actually helps my case out more.

The attorney stated that in MA legal advice is not legal research. Given the fact that no paperwork was ever submitted to the Bankruptcy Court, and I never filled out any Court paperwork disproves what the "client" is trying to say about myself.

My attorney says that I helped out a friend at a reasonable cost for the 30 hours of research time plus the cost of the binder. I charged approximately 11.60 cents per hour to help a "client" in looking up things on the internet and got publicly accessible information (Bankruptcy Rules of Court) for the "client". Therefore, it was a service anyone could have provided. It is not considered practice of law in Massachusetts.

My attorney actually suggested that I slap a civil lawsuit against the Attorney who wrote the letters to the Judge and U.S. Trustee's office for Slander and/or Defamation of Character. In addition, the attorney now representing the "client" acted quickly and neglected to find out other facts before writing his letters to the Judge/US Trustee's office.

Please give me you input as to whether or not you'd slap someone with a Defamation of Character/Slander suite for doing what the "client" and the attorney did.

note: I use the term "client" now loosely. I'd rather referr to the "client" a client rather then friend.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/13/05 1:34pm
Msg #20496

Re: Someone to listen while I blow off steam!!!!

Gee, what a shock. Victoria Ring giving advice that sends notaries into a gray area that could possibly get them sued into oblivion.

Reply by CarolynCO on 2/13/05 12:36pm
Msg #20482

Re: Pro bono defined ...

Black's Law Dictionary defines Pro Bono: "used to define work or services (e.g. legal services) done or performed free of charge" -- once you charged $350, it quit being pro bono. It's a very thin and dangerous grey line whenever you do researach and present your research while not under an attorney's guidance.

I agree with Bobbi that losing your notary commission is the least of your worries.

Reply by art on 2/13/05 1:41pm
Msg #20499

A notary does not have a "client" - a notary identifies a person and notarizes a document. You are not a bad person, just using bad judgment. A paralegal does work under the supervision of an attorney who is responsible & liable for the work of the paralegal.

There is no telling how this will come out, and with luck it may just disappear. Incidently, a bankruptcy practice is highly automated, and it take very little time of an experience attorney to advise a client and to prepare a petition and plan. 30 hours "reasearch" is impossible for a consumer bankruptcy. Next time, do what you do, not what you don't do.

Reply by Anonymous on 2/14/05 7:14am
Msg #20555

Korey,

You don't need to do anything. If I understand correctly, you charged her for a service of which you preformed.

If she is filing for bankruptcy and saying you are her rep, simply send a letter to the Bankruptcy court, with her file number, and explain you are a researcher.

Also, if she is filing for bankruptcy, she must list her transactions for the last 6 months. Relax, the courts are not stupid. Contact the Lawyer and simply ask what his annoyance letter was for.

You won't lose your commission. Could simply be a misunderstanding. Call and RESEARCH everything. Good luck! :} Lori