Posted by Ernest Adams on 2/1/05 12:07am
Msg #18965

"Two witnesses": In CT, no.

Because there have been several posts here about using two witnesses in CA if the signer does not have adequate identification, somebody needs to explicitly mention that some states may not allow this.

Section 4.4 of the CT notary public manual says "... If an individual requesting notarial services does not have satisfactory forms of identification, identity can be established by the oath or affirmation of a credible witness."

Section 4.5 says "A credible witness is an individual who is personally known by the notary and who personally knows the signer. ... It is ESSENTIAL that the credible witness be PERSONALLY KNOWN to the notary." (The manual's emphasis [underlining] is shown in caps here.)

I annoyed the CT SoS's staff by pointing out both of the sections and pressing "What if the signer doesn't have acceptable ID and we can't find a third party known to both of us?" and mentioning that CA allows two witnesses with proper ID, dot dot dot. Their final answer was "If the notary and the signer can't find somebody known to both of them, the notarial act cannot be legally performed."

I'm neither an expert nor an attorney. Please consult your state's notary public manual. Actual mileage may vary. Void where prohibited. Objects in the mirror are gaining on you.

Reply by HisHughness on 2/1/05 12:37am
Msg #18967

Strikes me as being a denial of both equal protection and due process. What happens when the party is required to submit documents under notarial certification in a lawsuit and cannot do so because he does not meet the identification requirements? Or when he can't buy or sell property for the same reason? Sounds like a $6 notarial certification could turn into a $600,000 lawsuit.

Gawd, I DO love the law!

Reply by PAW_Fl on 2/1/05 7:14am
Msg #18986

If the person signing the documents cannot be properly identified, why on earth would you want the documents to be submitted? The identification process is there for a reason: to prevent fraud. Florida has a statute similar to California, but apparently the interpretation is far different.

If FL, if the person does not have one of the forms of acceptable ID (driver's license or state ID card, military ID, passport, "green" card, or inmate ID card) then we are left with one credible witness who knows both the signer and the notary (and is not in any way, shape or form, associated with the transaction). We also have the two credible witnesses in cases where it is "difficult or impossible" for the signer to obtain another form of ID. (The latter is the part where CA and FL differ in their interpretation of the respective sections of the statutes.)

Reply by Bobbi in CT on 2/1/05 7:33am
Msg #18992

Don't personally know a notary for 5 years ...

"Gawd, I DO love the law!" Me, too.

HisHughness,

There is a simple solution to the problem in CT, which is why the SOTS office has never bothered to solve the "only a friend of the notary who is a friend of the signer" issue. Besides the fact there is no good, definative explanation of "personally known." It is subjective based on each notary's personal opinion of whether he or she "knows" the credible witness and the CR's personal opinion of whether he or she "knows" the signer and the notary.

The CT solution: Notarizations in some parts of the state are $10 with identification and $25 without. (Remember, our notaries do NOT have to keep any records and do no need a seal, stamp, or background check.) CT notaries are not required to post the statutory MAXIMUM fee, so odds are most don't know the maximum fee "per notarization" is $5. I don't make this up. Two years ago after a guest lecture I gave, two students came up to me to tell me they had "no idea..." and what they were charged for notarizations.

P.S. The SOTS hasn't defined "per notarization" either - it's up to the notary to determine if husband and wife signing one document at the same time and the notary completing one notarization block is one "notarization" or two.

Reply by Bobbi in CT on 2/1/05 7:24am
Msg #18989

Welcome to My World ...

I "annoy" the CT Secretary of State's office on a regular basis for decades. Ask too many questions or point out too many problems and you could bump me off the top of the annoying caller list. (Although their attorneys, who are replaced on a regular basis, are very pleasant during our conversations.)

For true annoyance ask the following questions on different days:
Why doesn't the CT Secretary of State support legislation requiring non-attorney notaries to keep a journal?
With all the fraud and identity theft that we hear about today, why doesn't the SOTS require criminal background checks for new and re-newing notaries?
Why doesn't the SOTS have an on-line database with the names, commission expiration dates, and town of residence for current notaries like other states (Florida, for example)?

Reply by Maureen/nh on 2/1/05 10:25am
Msg #19005

Re: Welcome to My World ...

Hey Bobbi, you've actually have attorneys in the SOS's office? How novel!

Chug up 91, we don't have too many bothersome things like rules and regs. Most anything goes as long as you have good intensions.

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