Posted by a signing service on 7/28/05 5:53pm
Msg #55426

Why notaries can't command higher fees

I have just spent the last 3 hours getting ripped by my clients for dumb notary errors. No initals for corrections, documents printed incorrectly, missing stamps, etc, etc...I've been doing this a long time and I know month-end is hectic...but its always worth going over the docs one more time. All errors have been small mistakes. The type of mistake that ususally no one will come back to the notary on...but they are things that will hang up a loan and even my very experienced notaries have made these little mistakes. Remember little mistakes caught back at the lenders or title office can cost you in the long run. A little extra QC can pay ten-fold

Reply by Charles_CA on 7/28/05 6:07pm
Msg #55429

But that is why you signing services make the BIG BUCKS

Reply by Brijoe_WA on 7/28/05 6:12pm
Msg #55431

Re: The SS NEVER make mistakes...n/m

Reply by a signing service on 7/28/05 6:34pm
Msg #55437

Re: The SS NEVER make mistakes...n/m

We do...and so does the lender and so does the title company. And I suppose part of the issue with errors are we are requesting a notary to do a signing at month end, docs tend to be late around that time of the month and the notary takes on too much is too rushed and even the perfect notary can make a mistake when tired and rushed. But if you are aware that there is a high risk of error a little due dilegence can gain much on the back end...just as a lack of it will cost you.

Reply by AngelinaAZ on 7/28/05 8:08pm
Msg #55455

to 'a signing service'

I believe that all of us need to be accountable for the jobs that we do. I definitely agree that the notary should be responsible for his/her mistakes and there are no excuses. I worked in the corporate world for many years and finger pointing and excuses are just not a part of the equation when you are playing with the big boys. We absolutely need to double check our work and guarantee it. I, for one, have been fortunate not to have made any 'big' mistakes so far and I don't think I've made many 'little' mistakes either.

The only 'issue' that I take up with you is the Title of the message in your original thread.

Why we can't command higher fees...

Each of us should be held accountable for our OWN actions. It is not professional to not pay me a reasonable fee for a professional, error free signing because Joe Notary down the road screwed up a different loan. Don't pay him... go for his E&O... take him off your list... but please don't penalize the rest of us and use his poor performance as an excuse to underpay or lowball on a regular basis.

For example... if a lender makes a big mistake on documents... I'm the one who is expected to take a trip fee for it. If a TC can't get the HUD out and I have to reschedule twice... losing valuable time and money... nobody compensates me. If I put out time and money for printing and mileage... and then I don't get paid for three months on a job... nobody really cares.

I'm not moaning and groaning about it. I know that it is part of the job and I really enjoy what I do. I have a very good client base and I am at the point that I am as picky about who I work for as they are about hiring me.

I believe that there are many signing services out there 'lowering the quality' of the industry just as there are 'bad notaries' making mistakes. Raise the fees you pay the notary, do more thorough questioning, require references... provide after hours contact... be loyal... and maybe you will find that the quality of the agents and the work dramatically increases.

Honestly, I don't care if I want the money that day or not. I DO NOT take every job that comes my way. I make quick notes about companies that call me for jobs in a journal and I refer to them. I research companies before I work with them. I don't deal with companies that lowball all month and only pay a decent fee on the last day. I don't work with agencies that are rude when scheduling. I don't work with companies that are unorganized or baby-sit. I am pretty darn picky... I do excellent work and I work with companies that do the same. (I do give almost every company ONE chance.)

You signing services might be laughing at this but truly... to some of us, quality and loyalty really matter. I am in a remote area and although my area is saturated... I am only one of three notaries that have a good reputation. Nobody wants to work with the rest of them. So if you screw up your chance with me... you just might not get another chance. I know for a fact that I constantly turn down one company that screwed me over... and when they can't fill the job... I get a call for the same job about 60 minutes later by another signing service that is easy to work with and pays decent fees in a timely manner.

Due diligence from ALL PARTIES involved would increase quality in every direction. We should all be responsible for the parts that we play for the sake of the borrower.

So as to why we can't demand higher fees... I do demand them, earn them, and deserve them. And if you lowball me because the last guy did a cruddy job, you will be only be lowballing yourself because I would have done a fantastic job.

Reply by J/IL on 7/28/05 10:00pm
Msg #55491

Well said Angela. I agree 100% n/m

Reply by CarolynCO on 7/29/05 10:49am
Msg #55612

Re: Well put Angie

**So as to why we can't demand higher fees... I do demand them, earn them, and deserve them. And if you lowball me because the last guy did a cruddy job, you will be only be lowballing yourself because I would have done a fantastic job.**

I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Reply by a signing service on 7/28/05 6:30pm
Msg #55436

I wish we did make as big of bucks as everyone thinks...60% of our fees go to the notary...40% covers salaries, overhead and taxes.

Reply by Margaret/Florida on 7/28/05 7:19pm
Msg #55449

I learned a long time ago not to push myself at EOM. I only work for my regular title companies at month end. I typically would get a lot of calls at EOM from companies I have never heard of, last minute and most were a disaster and after killing yourself to do the loan, then not be paid. So I only schedule a light load at month end. I triple check the documents, twice at the table and once before I drop. I already have signings and inspections scheduled for next week. I love it when they call me on Thursday for next week, not Monday afternoon for a Monday afternoon signing. I no longer do last minute, same day signings.

Reply by Becca/FL on 7/28/05 8:45pm
Msg #55465

>>>I learned a long time ago not to push myself at EOM<<<

I wish I had learned this long ago. Instead, I learned this last March. I took on way too much last minute work that set me behind and stressed me out and low & behold I had made my first mistake.

I offered to fix at my expense, but the borrower could not meet with me. The borrower was three counties south (90+miles) from where I had met with him. We couldn't arrange a meeting place, blah, blah,blah. I called the service and told them I could arrange for one of my Notary friends down that way to help or let them handle it and just not pay me. The SS took care of it and I did not get paid.

I did get called back by the SS for another signing a week later, but do not work for them anymore. Too many late edocs, last minute calls, bad deals - you know.

After that awakening, I decided not to take on more than I can handle no matter what. I have excellent companies that I work for and if I ever made another mistake I think it would just kill me. I'm off tonight by choice. I havn't been home before 9pm all week and knowing that tomorrow and Saturday will be very busy, I decided I needed some down time. It's just not worth it.

Reply by Margaret/Florida on 7/28/05 8:57pm
Msg #55467

My husband also demanded more time with me. He gets up at 5:00am and has to go to bed by 10pm.
Many of my appointments were evening and I was not getting home until after 10pm if my last appt was 8pm. I was burning myself out and not seeing my family. No money is worth this. I don't do weekend appointments anymore unless I have nothing better to do. I went on vacation last week and came down with a stomach virus. I was sick for 5-6 days, had to go to the ER and got an antibiotic. I did attend a 1-day training in Atlanta for HUD, but came back and went to bed. My whole vacation was spent in bed. I went to visit my 3 grandchildren in Atlanta and could not even kiss them.

Reply by Serina/VT on 7/29/05 6:45am
Msg #55573

Agree 100% with Angelina, Becca & Margaret

I too am cautious about taking those last minute need to be done an hour ago EOM jobs. These SS never call unless its EOM and I wonder what they do the rest of the month! I have several wonderful SS's and Title companies that give me steady work and no way am I going take an appt that most likely will not happen and tell them I am booked. I had an Ameriquest LO call me at 11 pm at EOM and email me as well. I was in bed asleep. Told him the loan couldn't be physically d/l, printed me drive an hour and get it all done before midnight. Offered to do it the next morning and he said "never mind". Have to wonder who did it

Reply by CarolynCO on 7/29/05 11:04am
Msg #55624

Re: Agree 100% with Angelina, Becca & Margaret

In my experience, *last minute need to be done an hour ago EOM jobs* have several clerical and mathematical mistakes, and Serina, like you, these calls usually come from a company I've never worked with before. I try to keep the EOM open for my regulars who use and appreciate me throughout the month, and not just at the end.

Reply by CarolynCO on 7/29/05 10:56am
Msg #55617

**...60% of our fees go to the notary...40% covers salaries, overhead and taxes.**

And an NSA has equipment purchases, supplies (i.e., paper, toner); wear and tear on our vehicles, gasoline, taxes, insurance ...

Reply by Hozed_CA on 7/30/05 11:16am
Msg #55876

Gee... why do you bother to stay in business?

Reply by Elizabeth Atwood on 7/28/05 9:32pm
Msg #55481

Somehow I don't think a big old reputable SA would dare to shine even a faint glimse of a but around here.

Reply by Kat Ca. on 7/28/05 6:15pm
Msg #55432

You should have called me. The SS I work for tell me I'm a five star notary with them. Feels good when they appreciate what you do for them.

Reply by NY_TaxLady on 7/28/05 6:49pm
Msg #55442

If the SS paid more maybe they would get more of the experienced notaries. We wouldn't have to over load to make a living. It seems that when I leave a signing the borrows always say I made them feel comfortable with their loan. On many I have been the second notary on the job.They tell me the one last night must have been new because he or she didn't know what they were doing.

Reply by Anonymous on 7/28/05 6:53pm
Msg #55444

I totally agree. The notary is the one out there, driving way out in the boonies to horrible directions, walking into an unknown house where he/she gets licked by dogs, pulled on by kids and any manner of other things. Must smile and try to concentrate and try to get everything right under much less than perfect conditions. And heaven forbid there is a mistake - even a minor one - you are docked sometimes 1/3 of your fee. Goodness - what other business could you be in where you are soooo appreciated!!!!!!

Reply by Dmartz-IN on 7/28/05 7:09pm
Msg #55446

Lets don't forget to include foul mouthed LO's and loan Brokers cussing you as we should push their loans on the clients after they have lied thier buts off.

Reply by Nd_WA on 7/28/05 6:55pm
Msg #55445

An experienced notary know when s/he has made a mistake. If it felt like I missed something after docs have been sent I would let everyone know before the docs sat on someone's desk for a day.

Reply by Charles_CA on 7/28/05 7:17pm
Msg #55448

Re: another troll maybe

Actually I suspect this so-called signing service may be one of the $50 and under services who prey on newbies because the new ones don't understand any better, why else would they not reveal who they are. We know there are SS's on these boards and several of them have the intestinal fortitude to reveal exactly who they are. Perhaps they reveal who they are because they have dealt ethically with the people they discuss and have nothing to regret. Perhaps the anonymity of this poster keeps the flames of nonpayment away. Care to reveal who you are so we can have a substantive discussion?

Reply by NY_TaxLady on 7/28/05 7:36pm
Msg #55452

Re: another troll maybe

I am with you Charles

Reply by CarolynCO on 7/29/05 11:12am
Msg #55628

Re: to "a signing service" request of identity

**Care to reveal who you are so we can have a substantive discussion? **

Charles, I was just about ready to create my own post directed to *a signing service* to ask the identity/name of the signing service -- not so much for the substantive discussion, but so I can make note and not accept signings from him/her/them.

Reply by Another signing service on 7/28/05 8:13pm
Msg #55456

Wow, good to know we aren't the only ones going thru this. That having been said, I would like to add that I totally understand the Signing Agent's points of view, although some of those views are based on erroneous assumptions. I am also a Signing Agent, (please take note of the fact that I didn't say notaries, the title and caps are a form of respect) and understand all of their points, and in most cases, then some. An idea that is near and dear to my heart is the one where we work together as a team, without the animosity that is often clearly present. We are not ememies. We are all hard working people just trying to do the best job we can, and we all want to be rewarded, both with a decent paycheck and recognition of the hard work we do.

However, having worn both hats, I honestly believe this job is the more difficult and frustrating of the two. As difficult as being a Signing Agent is, this job requires infinitely more patience and tact, with less control, less flexibility, and higher risk factor.

Often, the SS is not paid for the work they have performed, and frequently have to perform the same job more than once (rescedules, cancellations, etc.) for the same amount of pay. And the idea that all we do is make a phone call, and collect the lions's share of the pay pie is so far from the reality of it, that it makes one's head swim. Often, we have difficulty putting the phone down from solving problems, of both the Signing Agent's and the Client's (title companys and lenders) that we have now hired a "problem person" just to handle these things so our schedulers can actually schedule. BTW, lest you think that those problems are the result of hiring inexperienced "$50.00 notaries", because we want more of the pay pie, please understand this; saving a measly ten bucks on a signing just isn't worth the headaches. I would rather make less, pay more, achieve more customer satisfaction and Signing Agent loyalty. Saving ten bucks just isn't what life is all about. And please be honest and admit that, just as all Signing Services are not created equal, neither are Signing Agents. Although we have a two year signing experience requirement, and meet the SA' fee, if we can, we, like the original poster, still have problems. While I was still "only" a SA, I truly would not have believed the things we have seen some "notaries" do. We have had them show up to signings drunk. We have had them disappear off the face of the earth with the docs. We have had one who spun wheelies on the borrower's lawn because the borrower was a real A$$. We have had many who were rude (but generally only once. Remember the "Life's too short" rule). Many who were inept. Many who have outright lied about their qualifications. The list goes on. Just as your no-no lists go on.

As for the

I think the key here is to find PEOPLE with whom we can comfortably and profitably work. For us that would be SA's who respect who we are and what we do, and our place in the business.

Also, like the original poster, I have to agree that we actually get a smaller share of the pay pie than most people think. Taxes take a huge chunk. Worker's Comp is a real killer. Operating expenses would choke a horse. I am not complaining, simply stating a fact. I chose my path, and live with it all, the frustrations

Reply by Another Signing Service on 7/28/05 8:37pm
Msg #55464

Oops! hit the wrong key. See, we do make mistakes, LOL.
should be:

As for why more title companies don't hire SA's directly, it's the problems we have just outlined. Because the task of coordinating the signings and the SA's is so time consuming, it just isn't cost effective for most TC's or lenders.

I won't hide behind an anon. handle. We are Continental Signing Services, and proud of it.
We...
1. Pay our SA's whether or not we have been paid.
2. Have a courteous and friendly staff.
3. Have extended office hours (7:30 am to 6:00 pm PST) I am more often than not in the office at 5:30 am, and still there til 7 or 8.
4. Have an after hours/emergency # for ??
5. Will meet your fee if we can, and still make a profit. If we can't, we'll tell you outright, with no games. If we tell you we have to get an amount approved, it's because we really do. Sometimes we will call our client and tell them it's going to cost more, so we can pay you more. Sometimes they go for this, and sometimes we don't. Sometimes we forego more of our slice of the pie to pay you more. We don't ask for more money often, because it isn't fair, and it isn't good business. And we definitely can't do it after the fact.

I hope this will initiate a dialogue between SA's and SS's that will be beneficial to both. Maybe we both can learn a thing or two. For those of you who hide behind anonimity, whether you be SA or SS, open up, loosen up. Hats off (red or otherwise) to Sylvia, Monica and others who are open and honest with their dialogue and their identities.

For those of you only interested in flaming, who cares. It is easy to spout about what's wrong, when you don't have any constructive ideas for change.

Thanks again.
Kandi @ Continental Signing Services

Reply by Becca/FL on 7/28/05 8:54pm
Msg #55466

Thank you Kandi

I'm glad you decided to post your identity. You have earned my respect.

Reply by Kandi on 7/28/05 9:19pm
Msg #55475

Re: Thank you Kandi

Becca, where are you in Florida? I have a lot of business there. Call me. 916-294-0962.

Reply by Elisa_CA on 7/28/05 9:26pm
Msg #55477

Re: Thank you Kandi

Do you have notary work in the Southern CA area. If so, could you please let me know what I need to do to be added to your datatbase? Thank-you.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 7/28/05 9:28pm
Msg #55479

Re: Thank you Kandi - CSS is one of the good ones!

I will work with Kandi any day of the week! She pays fair and pays timely.

Reply by Anonymous on 7/28/05 9:44pm
Msg #55485

Re: Thank you Kandi - CSS is one of the good ones!

What is her web site?

Reply by Kandi on 7/28/05 10:01pm
Msg #55493

Re: Thank you Kandi - CSS is one of the good ones!

Our site is under re-construction because we are in the process of converting to an all internet system which will allow the orders to be received and filled online. The SA's will receive their work orders via e-mail, as well as file their reports online. Ask away, and don't ask them, anonymous, ask me. My name, business name, phone and fax is there for all to see. Who are you? Not trying to be contentious or confrontational here. Just trying to have an open dialogue, and anonymous, whether you be SS or SA, just doesn't cut it. If you are the original poster, as I suspect, I've already given you enough tips as to how we operate, and why. Come out of the closet. Let's work together to better the industry, and promote better understanding of the business.

Reply by CarolynCO on 7/29/05 11:47am
Msg #55653

Re: Thank you Kandi - CSS is one of the good ones!

If Kandi can identify herself, why can't you give her the dececy to identify yourself?

Reply by CarolynCO on 7/29/05 11:52am
Msg #55659

Re: Toops - decency

Reply by CarolynCO on 7/29/05 11:53am
Msg #55661

Re: Toops - where'd that "T" come from ??

Reply by Kandi on 7/28/05 9:47pm
Msg #55487

Re: Thank you Kandi

Fax a brief request to 916-294-0909. Phone calls take time and manpower, and we would rather have the fax. Thanks for the request. BTW, I am going to take a well deserved break next week. I am going to be in the Reno/Sparks, NV area for Hot August Nights! Go cruisin', go to sock hops, all that good stuff. Taking my 57 Chevy Bel Air. During the day, I will meet with any notaries in the area who would like to sign up with us, or those who already are in our database and would just like to have a face-to face.

Reply by Reggie on 7/29/05 2:59am
Msg #55567

Re: Thank you Kandi

Kandi

Thank you for being open and honest with us. I am looking forward to sending you a fax and then setting up a long term business relationship.

I hope you have work here in Kansas I will be faxing you my business information and hoping to do business with you.

Reginald
Kansas

Reply by christiSocal on 7/29/05 6:39pm
Msg #55785

Re: Thank you Kandi

This is to fax info to be on your database? Thanks and I will send my info (during non-busy times) . Gotta mention this though, my son thinks women with hot cars are the sexist women around!

Reply by Becca_FL on 7/28/05 9:45pm
Msg #55486

Re: Thank you Kandi

I'm on the East coast. I've added my link if you'd like to check me out. I'll give you a call next week.

Reply by CarolynCO on 7/29/05 11:39am
Msg #55647

Re: to Kandi

thank you for posting the second post giving your name and the name of Continental because I was just on the verge of addressing the identity of "Another Signing Service."

I have some great SSs that I work with regularly and I understand the headaches they face. If you actually do operate Continental the way you have posted, it sounds like you are a straight-shooter with ethics and fairness a top priority.

Reply by Kandi on 7/29/05 12:10pm
Msg #55677

Re: to Kandi

I had intended to reveal my identity all along, just put the "another signing service" because I thought more people would read it to get another point of view or read it to find out if it would be more of the same. I just get tired of all the Cr_p circulating from both sides. It seems to me there is no serious dialogue with the intent to promote a better understanding of the business. Most, definitely not all, the posts from SS that I see are whining about the "notaries". While it is nice to know others have the same problems we have (maybe not for the same reasons) my feeling is "if you can't stand the heat-get out of the kitchen. Definitely don't whine about "notaries" on what is predominitely a "notary" board. Just doesn't help the situation. Part of the problem, is all this animosity between SS's and SA's, which may or may not be justified in any individual situation. There's good and bad on both sides. My big concern is don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. All of us on this side of the fence are not bottomfeeders.

Reply by CrystalT_FL on 7/29/05 6:58am
Msg #55574

You are so right! I've also done both, and I decided to return to being a SA so I could have my life back. As a SS you are "on" 24/7, there is never any downtime, never a day you can say "today I'm not answering the phone."

We really considered our network to be a "team," and 95% of our notaries were great. Its the couple of boneheads who can wreck your day, and it snowballs. Before you know it, one error has spread across several days, trying to correct, and sucked down the profit margin from 3 other signings. If a notary made an honest mistake, well hey we're all human, just try to fix it the best you can. But...

When a notary has an attitude that their job just involves "paper," and a mistake is "no big deal" no matter how badly they have messed something up...

A notary who doesnt comprehend that they are dealing with probably the most important decision in a borrower's life has no business doing mortgages, and that was frustrating to me as a SA. I never had a problem with a notary telling me the were new, I'd walk them through whatever they needed. Its the ones who dont give a rodent's behind that make you want to crawl through the phone line and shake them!

At least now I have the perspective from both sides, which makes me appreciate the good SS's even more, and I dont have the time of day for the crummy ones.