Posted by Doris CA on 7/23/05 12:49pm
Msg #54128

signing yesterday reported today

HI, everybody.
A company called me yesterday to do a signing but they got the docs only at 11:00 pm last night. He called me today to do the signing. I do not I cannot back dating. What should I do?
Tell the guy to change all the dates before I do the signing or do the signing by putting the date of today and changing the date on the RTC and initials it?

I am waiting your answer to call the title company

Reply by Jenny/CA on 7/23/05 1:10pm
Msg #54133

Doris,

I can tell you are really want help, hopefully some one can help you out. From what I have gathered reading the posts and threads here I've learned NO BACKDATING especially on notarized documents and the RTC.

Good luck!

Reply by Doris/CA on 7/23/05 1:18pm
Msg #54134

Where are the specialist?

I am still waiting for an answer please

Reply by SarahBeth_CA on 7/23/05 1:35pm
Msg #54135

Re: Where are the specialist?

Doris it is ok if the docs are dated yesterday. You will have the borrowers sign with todays date. You will notarize with todays date. You will make sure that the dates on the RTC are changed to the correct dates. Just line though the incorrect date, fill in correct date, and initial. Then have borrowers sign the RTC.

Reply by Doris/CA on 7/23/05 1:41pm
Msg #54136

Thank you SaraBeth n/m

Reply by Stephen_VA on 7/23/05 3:33pm
Msg #54157

Re: Where are the specialist?

It is only OK if the TC says it is OK.

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 7/23/05 6:28pm
Msg #54181

Re: Where are the specialist?

The dates should be fine. They still sign and date according to when they are doing it. The docs CAN have an older date and often do) The whole idea of backdating comes up, when some one dropped the ball, or took too long, and the borrower is going to lose his lock/rate- if they are not signed by that "certain" date.) That is too bad, but notaries cannot backdate their acknowledgements/jurats because they HAVE to reflect when the person appeared and acknowledged signing. or appeared, swore and signed.

Reply by Stephen_VA on 7/24/05 10:56am
Msg #54239

Re: Where are the specialist?

You're missing the point. It is *ONLY* OK to sign docs after or before the date on them, regardless of the fact that you don't backdate, if the TC says it is OK.

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 7/24/05 11:48am
Msg #54249

Re: Where are the specialist? TitleGalCA where are you?

You cannot sign docs before the date on them. if today is the 23rd, I cannot sign today for docs dated the 24th!! But if today is the 23rd, I can sign docs dated the 22nd or the 18th for that matter. I would like to hear title company clarification on this...

Reply by TitleGalCA on 7/24/05 2:12pm
Msg #54265

Re: Where are the specialist? TitleGalCA where are you?

Sheila, I agree 100% with your response and SaraBeth's in answering the original question - I don't have a clue as to what Stephen meant by "it's only okay if the TC says it's okay". I can't answer your request for clarification on that statement. (I’d only take the TC’s word for it if they were speaking for the LO, and it made a whole bunch of sense to me. Besides, since when does the TC govern my commission?)

I look at this from two sets of eyes: A notary and a signing agent (and not in that order, at the same time). I want to know two things: does the dated date of the docs affect the validity of my certificate (as a notary)? Or, are there lender policies/procedures that would make the dated date and the certificate date an issue for lender?

Plain, good ole common sense tells me there's something up with docs dated after my certificate date. Anybody can figure that one out, how can you create a set of docs after I notarize them? Just a normal course of events - docs are created, shipped out, emailed to me, then I sign the borrowers. In real time, it can't happen in reverse and if it does, there's something wrong or it's an error. IMO errors happen (a lot lately) more frequently than plots to defraud/cheat.

Dated dates on docs vary a lot and some have no date at all when recorded, like you said it's common to have the doc date older than your cert. date. I'll look into the SOS site, to answer whether or not the date would affect how valid my certificate is. As to lender reqs/policies, I learn more from you guys on those issues.

Reply by CarolynCO on 7/24/05 2:55pm
Msg #54273

Re: Where are the specialist? TitleGalCA where are you?

I have a packet sitting in my brief case right now. Docs dated Friday the 22nd, RTC dated the 26th. Five minutes after leaving my house on my way to the signing on Friday night, Borrower calls to tell me his wife had been called out-of-town to do training. I get home and e-mail TC, LO and leave voice messages to verify that I could do signing on either Saturday or Sunday dating the *current* date for that day (because I wouldn't backdate), drawing line through RTC, revising new date and initialing.

Saturday I heard from neither Borrower, TC or LO. This morning (Sunday) I leave another message for LO asking what I should do before contacting borrower. She said that she was sure I could simply change the RTC date but that she would get back with me. In the meantime, LO's superior calls me to get borrowers phone number, because, of course, since it's Sunday, he does not have the paperwork in front of him. Borrower is now calling wanting to know the interest rates on the docs, because the ones he received are not what he was quoted. He has not talked to LO's superior yet.

LO and superior have not gotten back to me. Borrower is being wishy-washy about time he can do the signing, if it is done today or tomorrow -- and I think I'm going to end up with two packets (original/copy) that will simply be shredded.

Reply by Stephen_VA on 7/24/05 3:44pm
Msg #54289

Re: Where are the specialist? TitleGalCA where are you?

What I am saying is that regardless of WHAT YOU consider to be common sense, as a notary you better ask someone (SS, Title Company, Lender) before you just go sign a set of docs that have a different date.

I was responding to SarahBeth who said "Doris it is ok if the docs are dated yesterday. You will have the borrowers sign with todays date." Which isn't entirely true, it might not be ok. It is PROBABLY ok, but you should ask.

Sheila then respondended saying "The dates should be fine." Which again, isn't entirely ture. Shoulda woulda coulda.

There is one way to be sure the dates are fine, no "should" no "might" no question. You call and ask the people who care (SS, TC, Lender). You guys can use your common sense and have fun, me I'll use 2 minutes to check my common sense and save my time and maybe a signing in the long run. Which I have had happen when the company says "crap those are misdated", instead of being cocky and screwing it up.

And you can absolutley sign documents that are "dated" later than your certificate. Documents can be drafted to become effective some period after they are signed. They can be drafted to be effective BEFORE they were signed and its not even backdating *gasp*. This is common in the business world. I was speaking in general terms in the previous post, though their may exist certain Real Estate documents that make no sense or have some specific legal issue and can't be done that way.

Reply by Stephen_VA on 7/24/05 3:50pm
Msg #54290

Re: Where are the specialist? TitleGalCA where are you?

And sense you guys seem hung up on BACKDATING..... None of my posts were ever intended to say BACKDATING was "ok if the TC says it OK" I was referring to the whole issue of signing on a day different than docs, but with the CORRECT data on the certificate.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 7/24/05 8:29pm
Msg #54376

Re: Where are the specialist? TitleGalCA where are you?

No offense meant Stephen, toward you at all - my apologies if it was taken. I really didn't have a clue as to your meaning and it seemed to trigger more concern. The rest of my post was my opinion and it still is. The reason I like this board is that opinions can be posted, and debated but I'm always ready to learn from those more experienced than I am.

The date issue is one where I still don't know everything there is to know (other than backdating). So - when I post something that seems like 'common sense' feel free to correct me or show me where I'm wrong, and why it is wrong.

You said "you can absolutely sign documents that are dated later than your certificate" and "this was common". I guess what I'm wondering: why is that? If somone is locked into an interest rate...and that rate is running out, I understand the need for backdating requests from anxious lenders/bwrs.

For me, dated dates on docs have never been a huge concern for me, but then I've never encountered problems or issues with it. Enlighten me, please.

Reply by Stephen_VA on 7/24/05 10:13pm
Msg #54404

Re: Where are the specialist? TitleGalCA where are you?

I would say that having effective date on Real Estate documents is probably fairly rare, it would be just one more thing to juggle. There are other business situations though where you may want an effective date in the future, or the past. Lets say you and I are going to start marketing services together and from every sale you are going to get X percent, but you wont start your co-marketing for a month. We could draft the documents, and sign them with an effective date of one month from now. Then when I look at sales, the intervening month does not get split with you. Only sales after our effective date, which from the point of the documents execution is a month in the future, will get split with you. They would be signed and notarized with the date they were signed, but the relevant dates in the document would still refer to that date 1 month in the future. This is all about when the terms of the document come into effect, which can be quite different than the day they were signed. The specifics of the deal, and in the case of Real Estate all sorts of government regulation will dictate whether it can be done in each situation, but in general it can absolutely be done.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 7/24/05 11:23pm
Msg #54413

Okay for big generalizations in RE documents but...

really, really loose in the topic originally posted - my question as to the importance of dated dates in loan signings still stands unanswered. I know very, very well that dated dates of docs vary as to the documents and transactions themselves, but you said nothing to change my original opinion. When and why would the dated date of a normal loan signing bring a question to a good NSA?

Reply by Stephen_VA on 7/25/05 9:06am
Msg #54453

Re: Okay for big generalizations in RE documents but...

Well, thats a loaded question. If I don't give you the answer you want... am I not a good NSA?

My only answer is the same one I gave 5 messages ago: I ask every time they are different than the signing day and it has taken 10 seconds of time to answer it every time but the time the dates were in fact wrong.

Reply by TitleGalCA on 7/25/05 9:28pm
Msg #54599

Re: Okay for big generalizations in RE documents but...

No! not at all looking for an answer I want - just trying to get clear on less obvious date issues than RTC, backdating and rate expirations.