Posted by Anonymous on 6/22/05 9:02pm
Msg #46970
Split Signing
I have a grand deed that has 4 names but only 2 will be appear in front of me.
I should just cross out the printed names who doesnt appear before me and write "ONLY"' of the two before me?
TIA
| Reply by Shannon/Va on 6/22/05 9:09pm
Msg #46971
You are not allowed to change the content of the document. Are there 4 people as the grantors or 2 as grantors and 2 as grantees? Only the grantors need to sign.
| Reply by PAW_Fl on 6/22/05 10:06pm
Msg #46986
Typically and most often, you are correct in stating that only the grantor(s) need to sign. However, I've have been seeing a trend now with a couple of title companies to add signature lines and a notary certificate for the grantee(s). Personally, I think this is great because now the grantee(s) name must also be validated by ID.
How many times have you gone to sign someones DOT or mortgage and the names as vested don't match ID? Or worse, they are misspelled and just plumb wrong? By matching the grantee(s) name with ID at the time of signing, will help to minimize the ID problem down the road.
| Reply by Gerry_VT on 6/23/05 9:46am
Msg #47099
Grantee signature
The way the Superfund law works for polluted properties, people want to make sure they never own any polluted properties. I've never heard of it happening, but one could imagine someone transferring a polluted property to someone who does not want it. Requiring Grantee signatures would help with this.
The nearest real situation I can think of was a bank that foreclosed on several parcels owned by a bankrupt company, but did not forclose on a polluted parcel belonging to the same company. The government tried to interpret the action as a foreclosure on the polluted parcel too, and make the bank pay the cleanup costs. The Vermont Supreme Court ruled for the bank.
| Reply by Barry/FL on 6/22/05 9:12pm
Msg #46972
When there is a split signing, such as the one you describe here, I insist the creator of the paperwork have either two places on the same document for the notarial certificate, or place two differnt papers of notarial certificate with the document.
I will not leave a space for someone else to sign later where it can be construed that my stamp covers signers who never appeared before me.
| Reply by Melody on 6/22/05 9:15pm
Msg #46974
VA is partially right
In the NOTARIAL CERTIFICATE section (not the document itself), yes, you should cross out the names of anyone who has not appeared before you.
The thoughtful thing to do is to attach a loose certificate for your notary work and leave the original doc's certificate for the second notary. Professional Courtesy - notary to notary.
If there are any docs that need to be completed and signed by both you and the other notary, make a copy and fill out your portion on the copy. Not required, just thoughtful.
I always do things this way mostly because I assume that the other notary doesn't know as much as I do about loan signing.
When I am the second notary, my hunch has always proved right. You wouldn't believe the nonsense and mistakes I see on the work done by the first notary!
| Reply by TitleGalCA on 6/22/05 11:09pm
Msg #47009
Really?
***I always do things this way mostly because I assume that the other notary doesn't know as much as I do about loan signing. When I am the second notary, my hunch has always proved right. You wouldn't believe the nonsense and mistakes I see on the work done by the first notary!***
Really??? Have you ever been presented with a document that required signatures in counterpart? How can you assume that you know more than another notary? For crying out loud - are you kidding me?
| Reply by TitleGalCA on 6/23/05 12:06am
Msg #47030
Re: VA is partially right
***I always do things this way mostly because I assume that the other notary doesn't know as much as I do about loan signing. When I am the second notary, my hunch has always proved right. You wouldn't believe the nonsense and mistakes I see on the work done by the first notary!***
This is really terrible arrogance. It's as though you assume no other notary can figure out signing a document in counterpart, notarizing a document in general, nor knows the the importance of their job. I think you can safely assume that each notary in their state knows their job, and if they don't, shame on them. The point is, you do your job, and if they don't do theirs - it's on them. Your responsibility does not extend to them.
| Reply by TitleGalCA on 6/22/05 10:47pm
Msg #46998
I'm not believing what I'm reading from the prior posts.
First: You have a grant deed with 4 individuals/entities that are the Grantor? Correct? (this is important) and that is what I've gleaned from your post, please clarify if that's not so.
Based on the fact that you have a grant deed with FOUR grantors, the following applies:
1. If you are hired to sign only two (2) grantors on the deed (of the 4 you originally mentioned), then you DO NOT cross out anything (notary courtesy my eyeballs). Someone else will - obviously - notarize the other (2) that are not present (or have not presented a document with their signature and proved to you that they are the signers, as in CA). Perhaps the document is being sent out in COUNTERPART - you are notarizing two of the four grantees and someone else is notarizing the other other two. When document arrives in it's entirety at the title company, all the pages 'shall meet'.
There is no need for the grantees to sign anything - although in CA there is some generally accepted practice for the grantee to sign as "accepting" CC&R's or other such restrictions on the grant deed to the property.
Unless you have mis-stated who is the grantor/grantee, for heaven's sake, do not cross out anyone's name. Your job is to notarize those grantors that appear before you.
Should the Grantor and/or deed language require the 'acceptance' of the grantee, then there will be a signature place for those grantees, and those notaries can then notarize the grantee signature and attach a loose certificate.
It's really, really important to state what and whose names are on a deed as grantor/grantee when posting such a question.
| Reply by Nd_WA on 6/22/05 11:53pm
Msg #47021
Back to the basic
Isn't our job is basically to notarize the signature(s) of whom we ID'd be physically appear before us. Unless the original poster was talking about having 4 names preprinted on the notary certificate itself.
For split signing, if I'm the first notary then I'd use loose certificate and leave the original for my counterpart. Having a later date on the original document just make more sense to me.
My last split signing was just a nightmare. The first notary didn't even bother or know if she has to change the venue on the original doc, just signed and stamped. We were on three way call with the ss and she kept saying she did everything right until I faxed over the papers. Worst yet, there was only 1 RTC in the package signed by the first borrower with the RCT dates left blank. This is from someone who claimed she'd never worked with an ss but only for TCs/Brokers.
| Reply by TitleGalCA on 6/23/05 12:38am
Msg #47034
Re: Back to the basic
Yes! as to the first question. If you're the first notary, it doesn't really matter which certificate you use - original or loose (the second notary can attach a loose certificate, or you can, it is immaterial as long as the grantor's signature has the correct cert and date). Just make sure you 'attach' any loose cert by stapling it, or listing the document you notarized. Why be concerned with 'who goes first'? If I were the first notary, I'd use the original.
The venue on the first notary you described (in your third paragraph) is NOT YOUR PROBLEM. If you follow the basic rule on notary certs in your state none of this should matter. The second notary should know where his/her venue was. Each RTC is date sensitive to each signing. The lender is the one who has to sort this out, not you as signer.
If you did your job as signer to those who hired you and those who appeared before you, your job is done.
| Reply by Just a Thought on 6/23/05 1:05am
Msg #47039
Re: Back to the basic
TitleGalCA has it going on!!! You can tell she has notarized docs for years. I have been a Notary Public for 25 years and worked in the finance industry for just as many. Her advise is correct and complete as far as California Law goes any way! 
| Reply by BrendaTX on 6/23/05 3:47am
Msg #47049
Re: Back to the basic
Okay...my experience w/ split signings - I prefer to be last, so I have satisfaction of knowing how the package left to return to the title company, not because I think I am a "better notary" but because I know that it's put together the way my client wants to see it come back to them.
When I get the package second, I have gotten an eye-opener and realized that some notaries don't see that returning a package with details completed to perfection is important. And, you know...maybe it's not! And...
When I sift through the courthouse records, I realize that I am really hyper-sensitive to errors in the certificate. I have seen DOTs recorded without notary seals...notaries not using the mandated language to fill in the blanks on certificate...leaving off the expiration date when it is called for on the DOT certificate.
I realize that lots of things are not nearly as critical as I believe.
When I get packages last on splits, I see notarial seals left off (one is one thing, four is yet another), incomplete ack attached to cert, or ack which reflects the notary took the oath or acknowledgment of the signer that actually appeared before me.
If I am first notary, I attach jurats or acks to documents that contain the name of the signer I saw sign. If I attach my own ack to DOT before shipping to second notary, all certificates get equal time on the initialing by both bwrs.
That's my story/routine and I a sticking to it!
Brenda
If I don't attach the certificate then forward, the second certificate is not initialed by both signers...another little detail I notice which may not be so important in reality.
If first notary does not attach their own ack (which I have never seen when I get them second) then it's left without initials...it's no big whoop - I guess - if the initials are not on all certicates...it's just one of those anal ret. things I do.
I did a FL HELOC once. Notary used FL acks to notarize...ok...however, they did not see the signer I witnessed, yet they had left the name of the signer in the certificate as it was preprinted. I could not do anything about that, of course, not my problem or mistake...not my certificate.
If I get the package first, I attach my own certificate as a courtesy so the next notary won't have to attach one.
| Reply by BrendaTX on 6/23/05 3:52am
Msg #47050
Re: Back to the basic ...my post...
Clearly, I edited the above post in my sleep. Just take what's worthwhile and leave the rest of it to confuse posterity.
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