Posted by PJM/MI on 9/5/06 7:27am
Msg #143506

Attorneys in Fact..POA's

I got burnt rather badly by a woman who produced a POA for a closing. She was signing for her husband, then took the $ and ran. (I had to give a statement to the police). Now I am REALLY leary of POA's.
How can we make sure that the person REALLY signed the POA?
Yea.. I called the title co & they assured me he had signed the POA..she had even scammed them.
My last POA closing was for one of our men overseas so I could not call him to verify his agreement for the POA.
Has anyone else had this situation arise? And how do you handle it?

Reply by Dave_CA on 9/5/06 8:20am
Msg #143513

I can't answer for MI but in CA it is not our job to determine capacity and so this would not be our problem or concern.
I think you did more than required by calling title to verify "he had signed the POA"
I would be very concerned about calling the principal "to verify his agreement for the POA."
Again this is just for CA.

Reply by Diga2Lin/FL on 9/5/06 9:15am
Msg #143520

Not in Florida either - not our responsibility to ensure signer has power of attorney - supposed to take the signer's word they have it (although on a personal note I think I'd be more comfortable seeing a copy of the POA in the package for my own peace of mind and for identification purposes).

Just curious - how did YOU get burnt? Interested to see other CA notary responses.

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/5/06 9:21am
Msg #143521

The only burning I see is the time involved from testimony, giving witness statements.

This is a possible cost of our business and should be considered in the overall profit we need to make...I price accordingly.

Reply by Diga2Lin/FL on 9/5/06 9:23am
Msg #143523

You charge the police for giving them a statement?

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/5/06 9:44am
Msg #143525

I said: **This is a possible cost of our business and should be considered in the overall profit we need to make...I price accordingly. **

I price my services as if I am in a business. There are costs to doing business. Of course I do *not* charge the police for giving a statement. My fees include the "costs of doing business" and not just what I think I ought to make per hour.

When people make a real business plan, they do a proforma(s). This is to analyze what may or may not happen...to look into the future and to figure out what you might run into given situations that could occur.

Sba.gov is a wonderful place to start to get the picture on this. If more people did this at any point in their business, they'd be able to look at the worst case scenario and see each job as a means to support a business in the lean months, or during times when they might be faced with crazy situations. They would not have the employee mentality.

This post is not to be argumentative, but to explain that there's a certain amount of profit that must be built into each job in order to have an actual business which supports itself, and not just a way to pick up a piece of quick change. If you just want a quick piece of change, well, then you do things differently than I do.

Like other notaries and I have discussed, too many in our business have the employee mentality, and do not look at what we do as an operation that must be funded substantially on a monthly basis as a means to reach their own goals of profit. They don't know what the profit needs to be in order to operate long term. They do not realize that what their competition charges has nothing to do with reality *if* you want a business. If the competition is too stiff, you look for another business. You don't fly blind if you really want a business.

Otherwise, you are buying into the ideas that the Notary Mfg. Plant wants you to.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/6/06 12:37am
Msg #143764

Well said, Brenda! I heartily agree!! n/m

Reply by PJM/MI on 9/5/06 9:41am
Msg #143524

When I met Mrs. Borrower, she produced a copy of the POA along with his d/l,,but for some strange reason, things just felt a little "funny" as I had closed the same borrowers 6 months earlier, and he was present. Going on my "gut" feelings, I called the TC to make sure he had really signed it, as wifey seemed a little nervous. TC assured me he had signed before going to work that day.
6 months later, a detective is knocking in my door wanting to know all about the closing, as Mr. borrower did NOT sign the POA, and the Mrs. has disappeared into parts unknown with the loan proceeds.
I was informed by Mr. Detective, that due to so much fraud, it is a really good idea to make sure the signer of the POA really signed it, as since we are Notaries FIRST and then closing agents, we'd better make sure everything is legal and above board.
Since then, I have always made sure the signer of the POA REALLY gives their consent.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 9/5/06 10:40am
Msg #143534

Oh, oh.

We have to make sure the signer of the POA really signed it?!r Nonsense! Not even remotely part of our job!

As long as you called Title, you're clean.

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 9/5/06 10:58am
Msg #143541

Re: Oh, oh.

Clean, yes, but not helpful to our customers.

Those of you who have posted that it's not our job to verify capacity are right. It's also not our job to examine drivers' licenses for signs of tampering or to worry about using credible witnesses or to follow our gut feelings.

The power of attorney is quite possibly the single most abused legal document and so easy to execute - no notary or witness required in many states. Criminals are discovering just how easy and using the POA to commit more and more real estate fraud.

I do all I can to ensure that the acts I perform are clean start-to-finish - that way my name is never attached to a fraud, as in, "Oh, yeah, that was the notary who let Old Mrs. Johnson's son steal her property." If it means a quick call to check that a POA is legitimate - is it the lender's job to verify that? whose job is it, or are we never to question a POA simply because it's a POA? - then I call.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 9/5/06 11:17am
Msg #143549

Yes, it is out job ...

... to examine drivers' licenses (and other IDs) for signs of tampering! That is part of the identification process. Making sure that the signers are the people they claim to be is the very essence of our job.

"... not helpful to our customers"?!r Our customers are the public, as in Notary PUBLIC. We are there to prevent fraud. That is the most important way that we are "helpful".

Following our gut feelings is important. We may need to back up our gut feelings with evidence, but our guts are important.

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 9/5/06 11:47am
Msg #143557

Re: Yes, it is out job ...

Would making sure a POA is as authentic as a driver's license fall into the category of "our job?"

Not verifying the capacity of the signer, but verifying the authenticity of the POA.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 9/5/06 1:17pm
Msg #143580

(sigh) What is and is not our job?

We are responsible for verifying the identity of all signers. No question about it.

If someone signs an affidavit making certain statements, are we responsible for the truth of those statements?r No, of course not. We're stating that the signer personally appeared before us and swore to the truth of the staements. We're not responsible unless we personally KNOW that one or more of the statements is false. If, for example, someone swore that San Diego is the capitol of the United States, we'd be expected to know that the statement is false.

If we are presented with a Power of Attorney that appears legitimate IN OUR STATE, then we should proceed with a POA signing as our state laws dictate. If the POA does not appear legit, then we should refuse to notarize the document(s). As for calling the person who (supposedly) executed the POA originally, I can't see any way that that is our responsibility.

What would we do if we couldn't get ahold of the signer of the POA? Say, for example, that the signer is on a submarine (likely in my neck of the woods). Refuse until we could talk with Lt. Smith?r Put a note on the signed document that we hadn't been able to contact Lt. Smith, but that the POA looks legit?r

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 9/5/06 2:47pm
Msg #143597

Re: (also sigh) You misunderstood.

I was not suggesting that anyone call the signer of the POA. How would we know we are talking to that person and not someone who is part of the fraud.

I was suggesting checking in with the lender or title company to see if they verified the POA. Is that a reasonable thing for a signing agent to do? Or can we simply assume that the lender would already have done this because who would lend money based solely on a POA?

Perhaps this is more of a concern in my state where POAs do not need to be notarized or witnessed.

Reply by Lynn Lowry on 9/5/06 4:02pm
Msg #143628

A POA has great potential to be a scam . . .

. . . and calling title is not enough for me. I always have title confirm by email that the original POA has been recorded previously, or that they have it in hand to do so at the time the DOT is recorded. I staple a copy of the email to the signing prep sheet and confirmation. as a record.

While it is not our job to verify capacity, we can make sure that title has what is necessary to do so.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 9/6/06 5:30am
Msg #143794

Lynn - excellent advice!

I have used a similar tactic- your advice certainly puts all the ducks in a neat row. The only thing I am not certain of is whether it is over-stepping, to imply 'our' requiring the POA to be recorded? (Please note - this entire discussion is only in regards to POA's and loan docs.)

What I have always done is request title to e-mail the precise verbiage they wanted for a POA signature/sign line. That e-mail provided me with something in writing confirming that they were aware of and in concert with the use of the POA. I would draw a line on what I, as a Notary and as an NSA am responsible for at (A) identifying the AIF and (B) having the signatures/sign line verbiage precisely reflective of the USE of a POA. Personally, I don't even want to see the POA document, as to make any kind of determination as to it's being legitimate or not would require an attorney. (That's not to say I wouldn't collect any document title asked me to collect, of course - but generally, as your advise implies, title already has it.)

I suspect the greatest danger is in having less-than-well-informed NSA's thinking a person can show them a POA, and sign AS THE PRINCIPLE (w/o any AIF verbiage). This is something I've seen done plenty of times - and that's pretty scary.


In PJM's prior situation regarding the fraudulent POA - the way I understood how things happened, PJM implied that she notarized the original POA based on heresay confirmation of the principle's having signed it. In other words - he didn't present himself in person, as would be necessary in order to notarize his signature. She had received 'confirmation' from the title co that the guy had signed it himself, and bolstered that w/ the wife's having his driver's license in hand. That may/may not be an accurate rendition of what happened, I didn't find the postings extremely clear on that - so I could have gotten the story wrong.

Reply by SharonMN on 9/5/06 10:49am
Msg #143537

I think making sure the guy really signed the POA is the job of the notary that notarized his signature on the POA in the first place - not yours! If you can't assume a notarized signature is valid, what CAN you assume?

Reply by Marlene/USNA on 9/5/06 10:59am
Msg #143544

Some states don't require POAs to be notarized. n/m

Reply by Mia on 9/5/06 2:40pm
Msg #143596

Did you make this "woman" take an Oath (Affirmation)?
If so, then you don't have to worry.