Posted by Rickwoca on 9/23/06 8:14pm
Msg #148147
Borrower's ID
I have a signing on September 24 for borrowers in the state of California. The name on the documents show as Pat Smith-Doe but her id is showning only Pat Smith. I feel that I can not id this person for notarization purposes. Can you let me know what would you do in this situation.
| Reply by TitleGalCA on 9/23/06 8:28pm
Msg #148148
How do you know what her ID says if you haven't had the signing yet?
| Reply by Rickwoca on 9/23/06 8:36pm
Msg #148152
Because I call them when I was the documents and asked how her id read due to the fact of spanish surname. What would you do?
| Reply by Rickwoca on 9/23/06 8:45pm
Msg #148153
Because I call them when I was reviewing the documents and asked how her id read due to the fact of spanish surname. What would you do in that situation?
| Reply by TitleGalCA on 9/23/06 9:47pm
Msg #148160
Re: Borrower's ID - here's what I would have done
Well, for one, if I had her on the phone and I knew there was an ID problem...I would have addressed it at the time instead of waiting and posting a question on a notary forum and leaving the borrower thinking everything was fine.
If you are a California notary, you already know the answer to your question as it is basic Notary 101.
| Reply by Rickwoca on 9/23/06 10:30pm
Msg #148164
Re: Borrower's ID - here's what I would have done
Thank you for your help. I appreciate your advise. I have some experience with over 800 signs. I have already ask the basic questions to the borrower. They know there is a problem. But I wonder why , any questions here is consider bt some as being dumb questions.
Thank you again
| Reply by TitleGalCA on 9/23/06 10:39pm
Msg #148167
Rick - 800 signings and you have never run across this?
I appreciate you may be English-challenged, and probably a notary to Spanish speaking borrowers only, but still, if you have to ask this kind of question on a forum...after 800 signings?
Not buying that, at all.
| Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 9/23/06 8:46pm
Msg #148154
Re: Borrower's ID (and my rant)
Hate that when that happens! My little pet-peeve... why can't the borrower's ID be verified and copied when they submit their loan application!!!!!! Sure would save some headaches! Rather than having the NNA try to "force" notaries to get fingerprinted and background checked to appease 6 title companies in complying with GLB act, the industry ought to REQUIRE that borrower ID be presented to the financial institution when the loan is applied for, and use the name on the ID for all loan papers... arrrggghhh!
OK Rick, to answer your question... does she have a Passport or other valid ID that shows both names? If not then you might consider 2 credible witnesses that have known her for some length of time and can vouch for her true identity...and... both credible witnesses must have valid ID and sign your journal. Actually, I go overboard and any credible witnesses I've used, I enter all their information in my journal, have them sign the journal and give me a thumbprint. You put the credible witnesses under oath.
You might want to ask the SS or Lender if credible witnesses are acceptable to them for ID because you can not verify her identity based on the id that she has.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/23/06 10:26pm
Msg #148163
Re: Borrower's ID (and my rant)
"why can't the borrower's ID be verified and copied when they submit their loan application!!!!!!"
I completely agree! I know of some LOs who do, but unless it's a legal requirement, we won't see full compliance. (And probably not even then...) I've always thought it was a bit "bass ackwards" for Patriot Act compliance to take place at the very end of the process. I imagine the thinking is that notaries are supposed to know how to properly check ID - but it would save a huge amount of grief and wasted time on the part of many people in various stages of the process if it was done up front, as you said, when the loan is applied for. Unfortunately, unless there's a way the NNA could make money from it, the chance they would lobby for that change is probably very slim... ;>
| Reply by christiSocal on 9/23/06 11:19pm
Msg #148173
Same problem 3 times in 3 weeks!
Why oh why do LO's not ask at the beginning- WHAT NAME IS ON YOUR ID!!!!!! Today my borrowers middle initial was on everything, including the Dot. Of course it wasn't on her DL and she says she never uses it either. Last time the borrower's 1st name was spelled wrong. These are mistakes that should be corrected in the beginning. Wouldn't it be nice if LO's had to be notaries first! OK, that's my vent. Who's next?
| Reply by kathy/ca on 9/24/06 12:43am
Msg #148175
Would you consider this a case where CW's could be used???? n/m
| Reply by christiSocal on 9/24/06 9:44pm
Msg #148294
Re: Would you consider this a case where CW's could be used????
No. She never uses her middle name, so no one around knows her as such.
| Reply by kathy/ca on 9/24/06 10:33pm
Msg #148301
I agree with you. I think it was barbara/ca that suggested
using CW's in this case and I did not agree with that, thus my question, "Would you consider this a case where CW's could be used" ???? I wasn't asking the question in a tone meaning I didn't know, I was asking infering I didn't agree (notice the string of question marks)! It probably should have been asked like this, "Would you REALLY consider this a case where CW's could be used? I dont agree!" This is the problem of the written word with out voice inflection and facial expression misconstruing the meaning.
| Reply by Lee/AR on 9/24/06 11:46am
Msg #148233
The real problem is how they took Title
That's what has to be 'matched' on docs. It all goes back to when the B's made an offer to purchase on the property. It still wouldn't hurt a bit to check BOTH how Title was taken and what's on the ID before it gets to the table.
| Reply by kathy/ca on 9/24/06 12:35pm
Msg #148240
And, if the BRW took title years ago and has since married &
changed "her" name, her ID would most likely NOT match what is on the doc's. SO, should the doc's be redrawn to be in the same name as who she is today?????
| Reply by LC/AZ on 9/24/06 1:05pm
Msg #148242
Re: And, if the BRW took title years ago and has since married &
Okay guys, please, answer this one for me ( keeping in mind that names, nicknames and intials are not real.) Had a Warranty Deed that stated: Bob Brown, an married man, who took title as Bob R. Brown, an unmarried man, does hereby convey to Bob Brown and his wife, Betty Smith blah, blah, blah......... I.D. on husband's license says: Bob Joe Brown. Wife tells me Joe is a nickname for middle initial R name, but he never uses it anymore. The document signature line states that it is to be signed as Bob Brown. The signing got cancelled, but, there's a possibility it may still take place. Help!
| Reply by kathy/ca on 9/24/06 1:40pm
Msg #148244
No way is Joe a nickname from the letter "R"! n/m
| Reply by Blueink_CA on 9/24/06 2:25pm
Msg #148247
Kathy...
In CA this would be a completely acceptable ID situation. The name on docs is less than the name on ID. Maybe it's just me but based on some of your questions/posts on this board, I get the idea that you could benefit from a mentor program. Have you looked into it?
| Reply by LC/AZ on 9/24/06 2:52pm
Msg #148253
Re: Kathy...
I, actually, was going to ask if anyone knew of a good, perhaps, on line course, or a book to learn the particulars for signings? I have the NSA and NNA Home study course books for notaries and signing agents, but it seems, they only cover the basics. Is there something really in-depth that spells out every single situation a signer might experience. I've trained with a title company, off and on, for a over a year and got certified as a signing agent through the NNA, but I'm realizing I'm a far cry from knowing all there is to know. I'm learning alot from these boards, but not sure if everyone feels it's okay for newbies to ask questions. I'm eager to learn and be the best I can be, but I feel I need to take more courses. My daughter is an Escrow Officer and we do attend as many signing classes as we can fit in, but I still feel there is so much more to learn. I've only been out on my own for about 4 months, and it seems like everytime, something comes up that I feel I need to question. Can anyone recommend some good resources?
| Reply by AngelinaAZ on 9/24/06 5:50pm
Msg #148271
You need a confidence booster....
If you have taken the classes and certification courses and trained under a Title Company... you can't get much better training than that... except to get lots and lots of expereince.
I've never seen a book out there that covers every possible scenario (wouldn't that be an interesting find) because it would be as big as a house and ever changing. Having the knowledge that comes from sorting through lots of situations and scenarios is also what separates the men from the boys in the SA world.
It sounds to me like you have a good head on you shoulders and that you care about the job you will do. DO YOU KNOW YOUR NOTARY LAW? Notary Law is cut and dry in Arizona... there's not a lot of gray area so that should help you solve problems as they come up. Know your law and follow it. DO YOU HAVE A KNOWLEDGE OF LOAN DOCUMENTS AND PROCEDURES? If you've done what you said... you should be pretty good in this department. Be careful when you train at a Title Company... many times they can get into a lot of depth that we cannot and should not. Keep your doc explanations short and concise... get a rhythm going and keep-on-a-movin'.
Before you go to a signing... familiarize yourself with the paperwork. READ the instructions from the company that hired you and follow them (and the law). Be thorough! Triple check your work... and have confidence!
If you KNOW your law and KNOW your documents and FOLLOW DIRECTIONS... you are going to be just fine!
Don't be scared to ask questions... you might not always get a nicey nicey answer but you'll probably learn something anyway. Good luck to you!
| Reply by LC/AZ on 9/24/06 6:48pm
Msg #148276
Re: You need a confidence booster....
Thanks, Angelina. Yes, I am learning each time I go out. I've only done about 50 signings, so I feel I am still very inexperienced. I did train, as I said, off and on, with my daughter's title company, but most of it was observation and in between, my full time job in retail, which I have since quit. Most of the time they are so busy at the title company, I'm afraid to ask alot of questions, and just sort of sit back and try to take in as much as I can, without being a bother to them. Everyone keeps telling me that I need more confidence and as the lawyer in "MY Cousin Vinny" said, "I'm getting better!" (Hope everyone saw that movie.) I've been to 3 signing classes: Escrow, Signings, and AZ statutes, but I'm surprised that each time I go to a signing, I still have some sort of question that arises. I always, when I receive docs, throughly go over the closings instuctions so that I don't miss anything. I'm confident in understanding the documents and briefly tell the borrower what it is, but it's who signs and i.d. situations that are sometimes confusing. This is where I feel I need more training. Am I responsible for policing the docs that are sent, say as to who should be signing (i.e. non borrowing spouse) or do I ignore those situations when they have not been listed, and just have the person named on the docs sign? These are the kinds of questions, in which, I would like to have more understanding. I do thank everyone for all their input.
| Reply by AngelinaAZ on 9/24/06 10:58pm
Msg #148305
Re: You need a confidence booster....
It will come in time. You are not the doc police and if you spend time second guessing the TC they'll get peeved if you waste their time. MOST of the time you should trust that the TC knows what they are doing when they prepare the docs. ID issues will come up (as someone stated above... many of them occur because of the way Title was taken previously) but you just have to follow the rules for your notarizations.
As far as knowing who should sign what... you should have a solid handle on this and call your contact if something doesn't look right. For instance, if there is a spouse on the Deed of Trust you should know the minimum documents that they are supposed to sign and make sure they are signed... keep a little cheat sheet if you need to. (You should always call before you change or do anything *extra*.)
Where are you in AZ? Anywhere near Phoenix? Jennifer Rundall may be able to find a mentor for you or someone that could help you from time to time with questions. I think there might be a small fee but it would be well worth it to help solidify the info that's bouncing around... if you know what I mean.
At this point... you might do better with a mentor rather than spending time and money on another class. The personal interaction might be what you are missing.
| Reply by kathy/ca on 9/24/06 4:07pm
Msg #148264
Blueink: Did I SAY that this was unacceptable ID? I didnt
even infer it! What I said was Joe is not a nickname derived from the initial "R", period! And as far as CW go, seems everyone has a different "take" on when it is appropriate to use them as a form of ID, not just me!
| Reply by LC/AZ on 9/24/06 4:25pm
Msg #148267
Re: Blueink: Did I SAY that this was unacceptable ID? I didnt
Oh, Kathy, please forgive. I'm at fault for giving such a bad example as far as nicknames substituting for real names and initials. It wasn't anything you said.
| Reply by LC/AZ on 9/24/06 3:23pm
Msg #148258
Re: No way is Joe a nickname from the letter "R"!
For example, did you know that Butch is a nickname for Robert? Confusing, huh? But, how are we to know what nicknames stand for? Not our job, I don't think. The name on the i.d. is more than the required signature on the document, but because, that middle initial as to how he took title, which is different from the middle name on his i.d. is the thing that has me concerned.
| Reply by ReneeK_MI on 9/24/06 3:58pm
Msg #148260
I'll answer this one ..
You asked for an answer to this:
"Warranty Deed that stated: Bob Brown, an married man, who took title as Bob R. Brown, an unmarried man, does hereby convey to Bob Brown and his wife, Betty Smith blah, blah, blah......... I.D. on husband's license says: Bob Joe Brown"
You will be notarizing the signature of the *seller, who is "Bob Brown"
You will NOT be notarizing the CAPACITY of the seller, which is "who took title as..."
Your ack. will only state the name of the seller as he is signing, which would be "Bob Brown"
His ID is "Bob Joe Brown"
Simple.
Answer is: no problem.
*in the event that you happen to have the rare Deed that has both seller AND buyer, the buyer is "Bob Brown". See above. =)
| Reply by LC/AZ on 9/24/06 4:08pm
Msg #148265
Re: I'll answer this one ..
Thanks, Renee, that really helped me understand the situation better. Oh, I really do need more courses! I want to learn!
| Reply by AngelinaAZ on 9/24/06 6:15pm
Msg #148272
Notary Law....
Since you brought up the subject of nicknames... it reminded of this little scenario I had once and I thought it might help you in your hunt for knowledge.
Arizona ID Law is a little different from other States.
ID says Robert Brown
ID is signed Butch Brown
Docs come across as Butch Brown... can you notarize it? It doesn't say it on the ID so can you notarize it? The answer is yes... you can. In Arizona we legally notarize SIGNATURES... not the printed names. In fact... if he signed Butch Brown on the license and then docs came across with Robert Brown and he signed Robert Brown on the Loan Docs you CANNOT NOTARIZE IT!! It is the SIGNATURES that must match.
| Reply by LC/AZ on 9/24/06 6:59pm
Msg #148277
Re: Notary Law....
Interesting. Now how did you learn this, and where do I get the book? Ha! These are the kinds of questions I need to learn about and where do I go, besides my friends at NotRot, to learn this stuff. I have a NNA basic notary course book, but I don't recall seeing anything on this subject. I'm going to refresh myself with this book and see if I've missed something.
| Reply by AngelinaAZ on 9/24/06 11:39pm
Msg #148309
Re: Notary Law....
I learned this from my own mistake and calling the SOS and the attorney for the Sec of State. You probably will NEVER have a situation like this... in fact... I probably should not have even mentioned it because now you will worry. Just remember to compare the sigs as well as the names because if there is ever a legal problem with a notarization... that's what they will be judging on...
PS... it says it in the Law Book I just never interpreted it that way. Once the attorney explained it to me... it made sense. The docs could say Robert Brown or Butch Brown but either way... he had to sign Butch Brown.
| Reply by Gary_CA on 9/25/06 8:25am
Msg #148328
What kind of a dummy
signs his driver's license with a completely different word than the printed name?
One called "Butch" I guess.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/24/06 7:56pm
Msg #148282
Re: I'll answer this one ..
LC, I think you might just be setting your expectations too high - just in terms of expecting to ever know everything about every situation. (By all means, do study your state's notary laws and be thoroughly familiar with them, however.) My point is to not be too afraid to ask, as someone else said here.
If you post here, two cautions: 1) Be VERY careful who you listen to. I think you got some pretty good advice here, but I've seen advice offered by people who are "often wrong, never in doubt". (This is a general statement not directed to anyone who posted here.) Bad advice is worse than no advice. 2) Try to develop a thick skin and keep in mind that what is important is the information, not getting positive strokes and nicey, nicey comments. Chances are that if you do your homework - which it sounds like you are doing - people are much more likely to help and less likely to give you a hard time. If you learn what you need to know, who cares how they frame the response? Take what you can use and move on.
Having said that, I generally prefer to go to the source (i.e. whoever is the client, for the most part). Different lenders and escrow companies have different ways of doing things, plus things vary a great deal from state to state. This is especially true for things like who should sign what docs, situations where the property is in a trust, etc. I've been doing this full time for nearly four years and I still ask sometimes to be certain about situations like those, or if something doesn't make sense to me. In very similar situations, I've received completely opposite responses from different parties about how to proceed. And if I can't reach anyone, I default to what the documents themselves say. It's not up to us to make decisions about who should sign what (except in some states, where laws require the notary to do so).
| Reply by LC/AZ on 9/24/06 8:57pm
Msg #148290
Re: I'll answer this one ..
Thanks, Janet. I do, always, try to call the source that hired me, but honestly, sometimes I wonder if I, like you, am being given misinformation. Some seem as inexperienced as me. That's why I was hoping someone could refer me to some good educational books or courses on Notary Laws and the like. I want to educate myself, so I'll have a very good understanding of what I'm doing. I've pulled up websites on the information, for which I'm looking, but I thought, perhaps, there are some out there who have taken courses, read books, etc. and who could recommend the best of these. I guess, my real fear here is, needing to have enough knowledge to know when something is amiss or not right with the docs, i.d., whatever, and when to say, "No" to a signing that just isn't right. Thanks, again, to all. Signing off for tonite!
| Reply by AngelinaAZ on 9/24/06 11:01pm
Msg #148306
Very good advice Janet! n/m
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