Posted by MelissaM_FL on 9/7/06 10:23pm
Msg #144346

Credible Witness Question

My biz partner and I are at odds on this one, so I'd like some input from the notary world.

Had a non-borrower spouse tonight (hubby in this case) who has no valid identification. He does have an expired green card and an expired driver's license from FL, but nothing that was issued within 5 years and/or valid. He claims that he cannot renew his license until he gets his new green card in, but he had to return the last renewed green card because his name was misspelled on it.

One of us thinks that using CW in this situation is okay; the other says "No way, Jose". I'll tell you later which of us thinks which way.

Input from those other pros would be helpful, especially as we both try very hard to follow FL law as written.

Reply by BarbaraL_CA on 9/7/06 10:48pm
Msg #144357

I would say 2 CW's can be used in this case. He had to return his original green card that was in error, he has no "current" id. I would be absolutely certain that all ID information for the 2 CW's in entered in the journal!

By not using 2 CW's in this case, then the loan is in jeopardy.

I REALLY wish that LO's, TC's, and escrow would HAVE TO obtain valid copies of ID's BEFORE the loan papers are drawn up!!!! (just a little pet peeve I have)

Reply by hcampersFL on 9/7/06 11:22pm
Msg #144372

Re: Credible Witness Question-Barbara I agree with you

about the "I REALLY wish that LO's, TC's, and escrow would HAVE TO obtain valid copies of ID's BEFORE the loan papers are drawn up"

It is so frustrating to go to closing after closing and they don't know what is needed nor have they been told that they will need valid ID's.

Reply by Becca_FL on 9/7/06 11:05pm
Msg #144363

Hey Melissa - Nothing current for 5 years? Well, it is pretty impossible to get an FLDL without a green card or DL from another state.

I think you are both right and both have valid points and here is why.

1) The manual states 2 CWs can be used if "it is the reasonable beliefe of the witnesses that the circumstances of the person whose signature is to be notarized are such that it would be very difficult or impossible for that person to obtain another form of ID."

2) When in doubt, you should refuse.

With that said, we are Notaries not Law Enforcement or INS.

Can you guess who's side I would take?

Reply by Diga2Lin/FL on 9/7/06 11:24pm
Msg #144374

I have no idea how I'd handle this situation, having never even had to address a simple CW situation. My gut tells me "No" - no valid ID = no notarization...

And I'm probably wrong, so go ahead - I can take it like a man...err..woman...

Reply by MelissaM_FL on 9/8/06 5:49am
Msg #144411

My biz partner is still mulling the situation over, and she was the notary on this transaction. However, we're now both debating the other side of the issue from where we were last night.

Originally, I felt that the notarization should be refused because I was worried that the "Juan Valdez" (NOT his real name!) in front of us might not be the "Juan Valdez" who is actually the Non-borrowing spouse, even with CW. Now, I think that she's done everything she can possibly do to prove he's the "Juan Valdez" listed on the loan documents and that, with the use of the CW, she can safely submit the loan package for final processing.

My biz partner, on the other hand, originally was comfortable with CW, but is now starting to wonder if the person in front of her last night was really the correct "Juan Valdez". She did take copies of the expired ID of "Mr. Valdez", but they are quite old and he's changed a good bit since the skinny kid in the picture.

Basically, I'm going to leave the final decision up to her since it's her notary commission, but really wanted some input from others who have run into similar situations.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 9/8/06 1:13am
Msg #144389

I had a loan signing about a month ago where I used two Credible Witnesses to identify the borrower.

In this case, she was in Florida on a temporary long term work assignment but the property was in New York. The ID she presented to me was a copy of her New York State ID and it had her first name misspelled on it. All the documents showed her name spelled correctly, including a quit claim deed with the name correction, so it was obvious the lender and title company knew there was an issue.

She had flown from New York to Florida and TSA had accepted the copy of her NY ID and her work ID (which had a photo) and allowed her to board. She had left the actual ID at her home in NY! I declined the notarization since she had only a copy of the ID, not the original, so the title company asked if I would do a Credible Witness ID if the lender would accept this method. It took about 30 minutes to try and work this out, so it was 10:30 PM by the time title got the lender's acceptance and approval to use credible witnesses. Now the problem was only one witness was available. The closing was adjourned and the title company promised to contact the borrower the next day to discuss rescheduling.

The title company called me the next day to let me know the documents were being redrawn and they would overnight to me for closing the following day. When the documents arrived, they now showed the misspelled version of the borrower's name (as was currently on title) and no quit claim deed in the package. I met with the borrower and her two credible witnesses, had them all sign my journal as well as the credible witnesses sign a Credible Witness Affidavit, per Florida law, and got the loan closed.

If she had only brought her actual ID with her (and had not accepted the ID when it was issued with an incorrect spelling), the credible witness scenario would not have come into play. I even suggested she have someone overnight her ID to her but she chose not to do so even though there was adequate time to accomplish this. She also did not want to get a Florida ID because the NY property was her primary residence and she thought that might cause problems. I don't know if she had the proper documentation to get the FL ID issued anyway, with only the copy of her NY ID in her possession.

Even though this borrower was told she would have to present ID at the closing, she obviously did not have a clue about what was acceptable. And it just boggles the mind that she would be able to board a commercial airline with the type of ID she presented!

This is the only Credible Witness ID I have done in 12 years as a notary and over 3-1/2 years as a NSA.

To answer your question, I would have accepted Credible Witnesses for ID in your situation. At least your NOS had the sense to reject the ID that was sent to him with the misspelled name.

Reply by Diga2Lin/FL on 9/8/06 7:35am
Msg #144415

After some serious overnight thought I think what bothered me was "he claimed" his new green card had to be sent back - no proof he ever had new valid green card. That, I think, is what bothered me the most and was sticking in my craw. However, our job is not to determine if he's legal or not - it's to identify him - and if two CW's are able and willing to do that then we've done our job as long as that procedure is acceptable to the TC/SS..

Reply by PAW on 9/8/06 9:44am
Msg #144429

What about his passport?

With expired ID and no other form of ID, I personally would not have done the signing. To me, the law is pretty clear on using two credible witnesses, but I would have asked the SOS for direction first.

Obviously, the signer has the ability to obtain correct and acceptable ID. The wording of the law does not specify that acceptable ID cannot be obtain within some period of time. Our manual simply states, "... a notary is asked to notarize the signature of a person who does not have, and cannot obtain, acceptable identification." Further, F.S.A. 117.05 also states "That it is the reasonable belief of the witnesses that the person whose signature is to be notarized does not possess any of the identification documents specified in subparagraph 2.;". The signer did in fact have identification documents in their possession, just that they were not current and thus could not be used, per FL statutes.

Reply by Becca_FL on 9/8/06 10:37am
Msg #144444

Re: What about his passport?Paul

>>>...that the person whose signature is to be notarized does not possess any of the identification documents specified in subparagraph 2.;". The signer did in fact have identification documents in their possession, just that they were not current...<<<

I didn't even think of it that way...he DID have ID albeit expired.

If you are in doubt just say no.

Reply by MelissaM_FL on 9/8/06 12:21pm
Msg #144499

No passport.

That was my first question.

Reply by MelissaM_FL on 9/8/06 2:14pm
Msg #144545

Thank you for weighing in, Paul.

The signing is a no-go, partially because of your opinion. Biz partner and I have been debating this between ourselves all day because of the wording where the law says that it is impossible for him to get acceptable ID. We also wondered about his id being expired for so long...since 2002. Your input helped tip the scales. Thank you for giving us your opinion. Of course, our call to the SOS has not been answered yet.