Posted by Philip Pullum on 9/11/06 10:49am
Msg #145106

Cutting Fees/My response to LSI

Our fees are structured so that we can make a small profit and still be fair and equitable with all parties concerned.

I am a full time signing agent. I have been involved with mortgage lending for nearly 20 years. I have owned my signing service for 4 years along with my brother who is a business partner in the service. I do not use someone else's printer, toner, copy paper, computer, car, gas, time, ect. to perform my service. I, as a self-employed professional, have to supply these items in order to complete your work order, unlike the "cheap newbies" in the industry I cannot rely on my bosses or companies resources so I can make a "quick extra buck" at their expense.

In fact it costs on average 4.3 cents per page to meet overhead. At approximately 100 pages per loan package that comes to $43.00 per loan set before I can make a profit. Then I have to make a package for the borrower, add another $43.00 to the equation. Now, before I can make a living I have to outlay $86.00 for an email package. Now calculate, an average loan signing takes nearly 1 hour to complete and approximately 30 minutes on average of 1 way drive time to make it to the appointment, then an additional 20 minutes of post closing processing( fax backs, audit, package prep). I now have 2 hours and 20 minutes of time invested in the loan and $86.00 of capital outlay. At my standard fee of $125.00 per email package I have a profit margin of $ 39 dollars per deal. Broken down, that comes to about $16.00 dollars an hour or $33,000.00 a year if working 40 hours.( Of course you and I both know that it is unlikely I am doing 8 hours of closings 5 days a week on a consistent bais. Well, that falls way short of the marketing adds and courses from signing services and the associations that say you can make 100K part time!)

So cutting my fees does not seem to be a viable option.

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 9/11/06 11:00am
Msg #145110

I think you mean $4.30 per hundred pages. I received the same email as many other people did and I have never worked for them. Question does this company pay title company fees for an over night package?

Reply by PAW on 9/11/06 11:04am
Msg #145116

LSI-West vs LSI-East

LSI West (California) low balls all their fees.

LSI East (Pennsylvania) has no problem paying appropriately and reliably.

Reply by Carmen/123 on 9/11/06 1:58pm
Msg #145183

Re: LSI-West vs LSI-East

Just so you all know LSI in California is calling all the shots. The PA office is under a great deal of pressure to use the lowest priced notaries and are now trying to cut into the edoc fee. The LSI in California now controls all the notaries for both offices. The office in PA is trying to resist but it is becoming more difficult.

If we all stick together we may have a fighting chance.

Carmen

Reply by KZ_PGH on 9/11/06 2:13pm
Msg #145191

Re: LSI-West vs LSI-East

Very True Carmen, Notaries must stick together in order to stop actions like this. I have only just started doing closings, but I am very well aware of what you guys in the field for a long time are up against. (I have been a coordinator for over a year now) Good luck guys, and don't take this lying down.

Reply by Brenda_CO on 9/11/06 11:28am
Msg #145127

JOAN - Cutting Fees/My response to LSI

Looking back at my notes, LSI only has paid $90 for email docs and $75 for overnight. Looks like they are in the run to ask us to pay them for work!!

Reply by Charm_AL on 9/11/06 11:38am
Msg #145134

Re: JOAN - Cutting Fees/My response to LSI

Brenda...The East company pays well.
I did hear that west took over invoicing....groan.

Did anyone else get the questionnaire fax last week on certifying your business? They are a minority owned business and we all know the advantages come Uncle Sam time.

Reply by Brenda Bolton on 9/11/06 12:12pm
Msg #145150

Charm - Cutting Fees/My response to LSI

Yes, I have been getting emails on a regular basis. I haven't done any work for LSI in a couple of months. For the first few months of this year, I had this one scheduler call me on a regular basis, but hadn't heard from him in awhile. I gave him a call and he said they had a reorganization and he was working a different area. I really liked him and would take the jobs even though it wasn't exactly the fees I usually get from TC's.

Reply by CARID on 9/11/06 9:16pm
Msg #145293

Re: JOAN - Cutting Fees/My response to LSI

You are correct Brenda. That is why I do not do many for them. They call me when they can't find someone to work for $75.00. My fee is xxx.xx and 25.00 for e docs.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 9/11/06 11:01am
Msg #145111

Philip - check your math

$0.043 X 100 = $4.30 X 2 = $8.60

I do not disagree with your response, just the math calculation. You did not mention other costs such as gas, cell phone, etc.

Reply by Philip Pullum on 9/11/06 11:51am
Msg #145141

Re: Philip - check your math

Yes that is the paper alone. My my total overhead- include your business expenses on top of this and you will get at what I am talking about

Reply by Diga2Lin/FL on 9/11/06 11:03am
Msg #145114

Re: Cutting Fees/My response to LSI..hate to do this

because I agree that cutting the fees is ridiculous - but you need to know your math is slightly flawed - 4.3 cents per page is $4.30 per 100 page package - 100 X 0.043 = $4.30

Reply by larry Schaffer on 9/11/06 11:09am
Msg #145117

hello philip,

At 4.3 cents per page costs, it would cost $4.30 to print a 100 page document. I too usually put 2 or 3 hours into an e-docs signing and don't understand how people can do 8 or9 signings a day like i've seen posted here.

larry schaffer

Reply by Philip Pullum on 9/11/06 11:16am
Msg #145123

Thanks for catching the math- kinda of early in the morning- just trying to vent frustration - this is not a get rich quick job!. The signing services are getting huge fees on the hud- with the overhead it takes to do the job- the fees should be more equitable.

Reply by Signing_Doc on 9/11/06 11:29am
Msg #145129

just a note to add to the equation

I recently had a E-Doc HELOC...88 pages (2 copies)...only 1 item to be notarized, split package, fax-backs (yeah you know who)...and FedEx back. On the HUD-1, the fee paid to the signing service was listed. My agreed to fee was exactly 1/2 of the total paid. SO, they got paid 10.00, I got paid 5.00 (example only)...just something to keep in mind when you are pricing yourselves "Doc"

Reply by Charm_AL on 9/11/06 11:31am
Msg #145130

Re: just a note to add to the equation

hey doc....you remind me of Doc in back to the future

$5. made me chuckle - make housecalls? Bring me some elixer

Reply by Signing_Doc on 9/11/06 11:32am
Msg #145131

you remind me of Doc in back to the future...wish I had HIS

money

Reply by Charm_AL on 9/11/06 11:33am
Msg #145132

or looks?....rofl....luv him.... n/m

Reply by Charles_Ca on 9/11/06 1:16pm
Msg #145171

Re: or looks?....rofl....luv him.... , Hey I just sold...

his getaway home on the Mendocino headlands. The guy is quite the character, he built his own home and used European antique appliances. The bedroom had this old-fasioned bath tub with the claw feet and a huge contraption of a faucet and it sat with aglassed-in commanding view of the ocean. He makes his own tiles and his kitchen was all tiled with hand made tiles, with antique French appliances exept for the Sub Zero refrigeration.

Reply by Gary_CA on 9/11/06 1:23pm
Msg #145176

How'd he do that???

I'm trying to picture how you fit those appliances into the DeLorean ???????

Did they look brand new?

Maybe he had a trailer.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 9/11/06 2:04pm
Msg #145188

Hey if he could make a time machine I am sure that

he used the handy dandy molecular compactor put everything in his tote bag and then just reconstituted id when he got it to where he wanted it. Regardless of what they say about the man I still like the looks of the DeLorean. I wish I had bought one years ago before the prices caught up to the future.

Reply by taxpro on 9/11/06 11:38am
Msg #145135

Doc, charge extra for those

For those loans you're speaking of, yes we all know who it is....the 32 page fax-backs, wait for approval before dropping the package, split into two packages, two labels, etc. I charge an extra $25 for those. That's in addition to the e-doc fee. There is (at least) an extra 30-60 minutes of work involved in these. Charge for your time!!!

Reply by Nate_MN on 9/11/06 2:02pm
Msg #145184

I will start by saying that I think Signing Agents should charge a fair price for their services, and I think that price is above $100 per closing. I think the corner that Signing Agents have gotten themselves into is for years we have overcharged for e-docs. For example charging $75 for closing, and $35 for edocs, to get a final fee of $110. That $35 charge is not defendable, otherwise you would be buying a new printer every 10 closings and I highly doubt anyone reading this has ever purchased a new printer every 10 closings. Signing Agents for years have used the e-doc fee to squeeze additional earnings out of each closing. Now lenders looking to make more money are calling signing agents out on it, and like I said before it's not defendable.

If LSI (or anyone) says we are only paying $15 (which is still probably above actual cost of printing, not counting pain and suffering while you deal with their doc delivery system or incompetance) for edocs and you want to get $125 per closing, then charge $110+e-docs.

Reply by Lee/AR on 9/11/06 2:33pm
Msg #145200

You make a very good point, Nate...

But the edocs fees were NOT originally 'set' by the Notary. In the beginning....some 9 or so years ago, when edocs were the newest thing (& laser printers were not as prevalent & were slower), companies merely DOUBLED whatever your 'signing' fee was. So, they, not us, started that trend. You are right, tho', that if they expect us to lower our edocs fees (tho' $15 is NOT acceptable--not even close), then the Base Fees need to be increased, as everything else has increased in OUR costs of doing business. They are simply honing in on the ONE thing that has gotten FASTER, tho' no cheaper.

Reply by Aarono Cooper, LLC on 9/11/06 3:50pm
Msg #145223

Perhaps some agents do overcharge for e-docs, but I haven't seen anyone actually show the true cost of doing these. Here are how my expenses break down for a 200 page deal (includes borrower copy): $6.56 supplies (paper & toner and I do buy in bulk!) plus $2.00 wear & tear on my laserjet for service calls, plus $12.50 for a half-hour of my time. Time spent printing docs is time I cannot be out in the field signing and my time is valuable. This totals $21.06 and many packages exceed 200 pages, include fax-backs and split packages. LSI wants us to charge $10 per e-doc package. My response will ask them to invest the time to split their e-doc packs with a special borrower copy package so that I don't have to spend my time and money on providing the borrower with copies of their closing instructions, county tax forms, funding forms, etcetera. If they are willing to do so, I will consider some reduction to my e-doc/borrower copy package fee.

Reply by Melissa Liberty on 9/11/06 10:51pm
Msg #145325

LSI can jump off a cliff as far as I am concerned...$15.00 gimme a break I agree with nate, Pay us a decent wage to begin with and them we would'nt have to stick it to you for e-docs...

Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/13/06 3:18am
Msg #145685

I agree with the last paragraph, but not the point about edoc fees. I believe you have to include more than just actual printing costs when pricing for edocs. The major cost component is your time. And when placing a value on your time you should include coverage for ALL overhead costs of doing business plus a reasonable profit. We shouldn't be expected to work just to break even!!!

Included in that overhead should be all the intangibles we don't think about all the time, like taxes, insurance, misc. hardware and vehicle replacement costs, utilities, etc, etc. This is not intended to be a complete list, just to make the point. Another factor that should be considered is that whatever time it takes to print documents (when we finally get them...) is time that we are not able to be doing other signings. When I do charity work, you can be sure it isn't for signing services - or title companies...