Posted by cassiewi on 9/5/06 6:00pm
Msg #143654

Situation: Mr and Mrs getting divorced, mr is non bor sps

and still needs to sign the legals, obviously. She is getting the house in the divorce (which hasn't happened yet) and doesn't want Mr to know how much she's getting out of the loan. Now my question is, isn't it his right to know, even though they are separated? It feels funny to me. I'm not comfortable hiding that information and don't think I should. Opinions? I've never run into this before.

Reply by cassiewi on 9/5/06 6:02pm
Msg #143655

As soon as I typed it, I knew my answer

I'm not going to do it. I will not purposely hide the information from him. He would still be responsible and has the right to know.

Reply by m_fl on 9/5/06 6:06pm
Msg #143656

I have been in this same situation and it was a nightmare ... the only thing i didnt know anything until i got to the closing and he pulled me aside and told me what he wanted me to do ... needless to say i just plugged along like i would and she did find out ... it is not my job to hide things from others ..

Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/5/06 6:10pm
Msg #143657

Trust your instincts here. There may be some state-specific circumstances that apply, but if he is still on title, how can you notarize his signature while hiding some of the document contents from him? I would think that would be obvious and it sounds like you knew that. On something like this, I think it's important to a) know your state's notary laws backwards and forwards, 2) be in contact with the lender to be sure they are aware of any unusual circumstances and 3) don't let a borrower intimidate you.

If you continue to do loan signings this won't be the last time you get asked something like this! ;>

Reply by cassiewi on 9/5/06 6:20pm
Msg #143660

I did and already called and told them that I would not be hiding info. I'm waiting to hear back. He said he felt the same way, but the LO was "asking" me, not him. The borrower told me that she didn't need her husband there the last time. I said, no you would've needed him for the legal documents. It felt stinky from the moment I saw the mortgage, there was no mention of the mr on anything, just her, then I double checked the mortgage and made sure he would be there. She said no.

Reply by Joan_OH on 9/5/06 6:11pm
Msg #143658

Tell wifey this......

He gets to sign the TIL which pretty much shows it all (even if title doesn't have him sign the HUD). He gets a copy of everything he signs, including the RTC. Tell her there is no way around it.

Lets say she's cleaning out the equity and decides to "let" him "have" the house.

He get's what he signs. He can do what he wants with the math. If he wants to see the rest of the docs, you must receive permission from the wife to show them.....and I have had husbands who have refused to sign without seeing them and wifey relents.

Yuck! I'm glad I'm not you.

Joan-OH

Reply by cassiewi on 9/5/06 6:23pm
Msg #143661

Re: Tell wifey this......

Thanks. And I really don't think it's going to go after I told them I'm not going to hide anything.

Reply by cassiewi on 9/5/06 6:37pm
Msg #143663

Nope, not going.

Apparently, the LO was not happy with me. Oh well!!!!!!

Reply by CopperheadVA on 9/5/06 7:06pm
Msg #143667

Re: Tell wifey this......

I agree with Joan. I have had situations like this, but I am usually made aware of the circumstances prior to the appointment. Whatever docs have the other spouse's name for signature on them, he or she gets a copy. If their name is not on them, they don't get a copy of those docs. I had one a week or so ago that was a little sticky. Gave the soon-to-be ex-husband his own folder with copies of the 15 or so pages he had to sign. Had him sign all his docs first so he could then leave and ex-wife and I could finish with all the other docs.

Reply by Stamper_WI on 9/5/06 7:14pm
Msg #143668

Re: Tell wifey this......

great way to handle it if you know you are walking into that situation (divorce).

Reply by dickb/wi on 9/5/06 7:48pm
Msg #143675

and if the divorce is not final.....hubby owns 1/2 of the house [on title or not]..and hubby also owes 1/2 of the note [whether he signed it or not......hubby needs an atty's advice and an agreement should be drawn up...if i was hubby i wouldn't sign any thing and would tell the wife to get her loan after the divorce is final......don't forget that wi is a "marital property state".....that is some different than a spousal or community property state........

Reply by Stamper_WI on 9/5/06 9:52pm
Msg #143708

Basically, the non borrowing spouse and /or non borrowing owners must be aware of and give permission for any loan against the property. That is why they sign the mortgage, RTC, TIL and often the HUD in dowager ( marital property) states like WI. All have these docs, except the RTC, have the amount being borrowed against their titled interest right on them.
To expect you to try to "hide" the amount from the non borrower , to me, is a form of coersion.

The agreements for divorce settlements are usually made by the time one buys out the other. The fact that an attempt to hide the amount being borrowed smells to high heaven. Your role as a notary requires that you are assured they signer understands the document they are signing. How can they do that if you are hiding the first page ogf the mortgage?

Reply by cassiewi on 9/5/06 10:00pm
Msg #143714

Exactly

I now know how to handle this from the get go. I really appreciate all the help. I mean really, if she's getting the house, it shouldn't matter. Thank you for your response Stamper.

Reply by Gary_CA on 9/5/06 11:16pm
Msg #143735

Of course, a LO that would do this would never ever

never ever ever try to screw the crooked notary that helped him out of a signing fee...

honor among thieves and all.

Reply by cassiewi on 9/5/06 11:24pm
Msg #143736

Re: Of course, a LO that would do this would never ever

Get out of a signing fee? I'm sorry Gary, you lost me. It's late here.

Reply by Gary_CA on 9/5/06 11:41pm
Msg #143743

Never mind it's late here too. n/m

Reply by cassiewi on 9/5/06 11:44pm
Msg #143745

Re: Never mind it's late here too

You weren't calling me crooked right? That was sarcasm towards LO, I hope.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/6/06 12:24am
Msg #143757

Re: Never mind it's [not as] late here... ;>)

I think he was implying that if the LO was willing to ask you to do something so unethical, it wouldn't be beyond him to not pay you, either. Legal consequences notwithstanding, I think what the LO was asking you to do falls into the same ethical pot as backdating.

Reply by Gary_CA on 9/6/06 12:53am
Msg #143776

Thanks Janet

That's exactly what I meant... and no I didn't mean I thought cassie was unethical... I meant the possibility (though we've seen no reason to think it yet) that this turkey might not pay is yet another reason why she did the right thing.

Cassie... you did the right thing... mostly because the husband deserves honesty from the Notary Public, but also because this LO is not the kind of fella you want to work with.

Reply by cassiewi on 9/6/06 7:17am
Msg #143810

Janet and Gary

That's what I thought he meant, but last night for some reason, I just didn't get it. And I agree. I am so glad I caught this before getting there. It was 68 miles one way. Whew.

Gary, sorry I misunderstood you. I am now wide awake, You're right though, just not a kosher situation. Hope I didn't frustrate you too much.

Thanks guys for your input!

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 9/6/06 4:17am
Msg #143793

What I wonder is - was the title co aware of the pending divorce? Often this situation is one that title co's don't want to risk covering, and a pending divorce (one that's been filed, but is not yet final) constitutes a pending judgement - and remember, this crops up on several closing docs. The 1003, for one and also both lender and title's borrower or mortgage affidavits. Anything that asks if there are any outstanding liens, judgements, potential claims to title interest, etc. Usually, it will even specify "such as divorce ..."

Until a divorce is FINAL, any distribution of real estate and/or property is only an assumption or projection (or even just wishful thinking!). Most of the time, things fall under the Mind Your Own Business category - but sometimes, IMHO, it becomes professional 'courtesy' to provide it when it's blatently given to you, and when it carries a potential risk to others if not shared.

Reply by Ernest__CT on 9/6/06 7:13am
Msg #143808

In some situations, such as this, ...

... an "Oh, by the way, the lender DOES know they're getting divorced, right?" would probably be appreciated very much. Well, maybe not by the borrower....