Posted by davidK/CA on 9/11/06 11:20am
Msg #145124

The borrower still pays the same amount!

It seems to me that all the discussions about reduced fees to the notary for services and e-docs miss the point that THE BORROWER HAS BEEN PAYING THE SAME AMOUNT OR MORE, NO MATER WHAT THE NOTARY ACTUALLY RECEIVES. (Shouting intended.)

Look at the estimated Settlement Statements or HUD-1 for recent closings. The borrower is still paying the same fees or even increased fees to the lender and/or title company, yet many SS are paying reduced fees to the notary. IMHO the only person/company in the entire "food chain" that is getting shorted is the notary.

Out here in California it's common practice for everyone except the notary to be paid increased fees based on the value of the property or loan amount. The apprisal cost more on more expensive properties, even though the amount of work involved is the same as for less valuable properties. Title research fees are more expensive even though the computer does the same amount of work. The loan "paperwork" is virtually the same, yet the fees are higher for a more expensive loan. The loan broker's fees rise with a larger loan. And the notary? His/her fee is stagnant or even less than it was a few months ago.

When the borrower sees a document that "officially" states that the notary will receive a $250 fee he/she thinks that's what the notary will be paid out of THEIR money. If they only knew that other companies will get the "lion's share" of that feey and that the notary will get maybe half of that amount (if at all) they would demand a refund. But the notary has to keep that "deal with the devil" a big secret or we will be blacklisted by the SS.

It's time to organize folks. If not, we will someday be paid no more than our state's statutory fee for the number of notarized signatures in the loan package, and nothing for our time and effort as a NSA, while the fees paid by the borrower will be even higher.

Reply by Charm_AL on 9/11/06 11:29am
Msg #145128

David,
Brenda/CA and Della might be working on a CA network, get with them. I'm forming the AlabamaNSAnetwork, BrendaTX has one established and working for Texas, Becca is working on the Florida network. I think this is great! If all of us put some elbow grease into this project, we will protect the future of the NSA.
The ball is rolling in the right direction!

Let's have a count, how many more are starting up? Let's communicate!

Reply by DellaCa on 9/11/06 11:38am
Msg #145136

Re: David if interested

contact Brenda at [e-mail address]

Reply by Nate_MN on 9/11/06 1:00pm
Msg #145164

Not to get off the topic of organizing here, but I wanted to challenge one statement, at least as far as my opinion is concerned. While there are many factors that affect how much work an appraiser does, value is certainly one of them. Higher value homes are generally a lot more varied in amenities than lower value homes, are less liquid, comps are more geographically dispersed, and carry higher liability. Appraisers have a lot of liability that Signing Agents don't have to worry about. I think the signing agents portion of the transaction is less impacted with value changes than the appraisers.

All that being said, I totally agree with you that it's stupid for borrowers to pay the same or more as previous years, and for signing agents to have their fees cut. Lenders however are the position to do that, and while organization could possibly help, it's ultimately supply and demand. Better than organizing will be patients to let the supply and demand environment move back into your favor. I am pretty sure that back in 2002 signing agents being in lower supply and higher demand were taking advantage of lenders/borrowers and charging high fees.

Also, don't be so sure that the appraiser is getting the whole fee from the HUD. The appraisal industry is currently dealing with Appraisal Management Companies (the equivalent of Signing Services). I am constantly hearing about lenders creating their own Appraisal Management Companies, or outsourcing the appraisal scheduling. Then a portion of the fee is now compensating the appraisal management company.

This drives a person crazy, but the bottom line is supply and demand in both positions.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 9/11/06 1:10pm
Msg #145167

I agree with most of what you say Nate...

However in California we have a situation that may be a little different than yours. Appraisers in the denser parts of California have the principle of conformity working very well for them here. In some places, Calabassas, Mission Viejo etc. there are multi-million dollar home tracts where you have homes that while they may be in the 20 to 30 million dollar range they sit right next to other 20 to 30 million dollar homes that are layed out virtually the same and sold last month. I know appraisers who do drive by appraisals in those areas, 15 minutes and they go "yep, meets the loan requirements" on to the next one. Heck, I know appraisers who look at the loan look at the area and already know what the price is and the only reason they leave their office is totke a picture,, if the lender wnts one. Meeting loan figures is a lot easier than doing other types of appraisals.

Reply by Nate_MN on 9/11/06 1:26pm
Msg #145179

Re: I agree with most of what you say Nate...

I am more than willing to concede my knowledge of the California market is not all that great, and obviously inferior to yours.(since I believe you know what you are talking about, and are clearly closer) I guess my statement was meant for other 99% of the country that is not as you describe.(the normal part) In addition, as I am sure you are well aware, some appraisers do more work per appraisal than others, but really that is an appraisal discussion, not a signing agent one.

Reply by davidK/CA on 9/11/06 2:02pm
Msg #145187

Re: I agree with most of what you say Nate...

Nate,

The Insurance Commissioner of California is currently trying to mandate the lowering of title and escrow fees charged to California homeowners because (in part) he says that while the fees charged have rissen dramatically in recent years, the costs of doing business has not. As an example he cites (in my words) the cost of doing the preliminary title research which consists of some clerical person pushing some buttons on a computer and out pops a report which is then sold to the lender. According to the Comissioner, it costs basically the same amount of money to do that job for a $500,000 home as it does for a $2,000,000 home, yet the title company charges perhaps four times as much for the same report for the more expensive home.

As far as appraisals, I know from personal experience and the experiences of others at signings I have done that the cost to the borrower of a standard appraisal document in todays market varies with the value of the home. What was just a few years ago a $250-$300 appraisal is now $400-$450 for the same property. What changed was the value of the property, not the amount of work done by the appraiser. They still do it the same way, spend the same amount of time, and produce the same report, yet the price is higher to the borrower because the value of the property is more.

But yet the poor notary's fees are dropping due to pressures from title, escrow and SS to maximize their profits. The massive growth in the number of new notaries who were promised by the NNA "easy money" (particularily here in California) makes it possible for the title and escrow companies to charge the borrower the same or even higher fees while actually paying the notary less and less.

It's a situation that is agravated by the proliferation of SS who are unlicensed, unregulated or without any performance bonding, take a large portion of the fee, if not all of it, pay the notary three months later, sometimes willingly stiff the notary, and then go out of business only to recreate themselves with a new name and start the process over again.

The notary has to meet stringent legal and moral requirements, sometimes very extensive as in California, yet the SS has no such requirements beyond having an e-mail address. The SS gets the money that's on the HUD-1 in a few days (even allowing for some take-back by title or escrow) and the notary waits, and waits and waits. The notary has no power to force payment because the notary is contracted for by the SS, not the borrower, not by title and not by escrow. Often, the SS is out of state, making collection activities or small claims suit virtually impossible, or un-economical.

Ah but we love our chosen profession, and we want to continue to do our job assisting persons who need notarizations. All we need is a fair shake.

Reply by Nate_MN on 9/11/06 2:21pm
Msg #145195

Re: I agree with most of what you say Nate...

David,

That's an excellent point, that property value appreciation is pushing some of these appraisals into different pricing categories, I was not even thinking along that line.

And it makes since that if you are using price as your determinant of appraisal fee, and the values of property are appreciating, while the fee bands are remaining constant, you could actually have appraisers doing easier work for the same or greater fee. Especially in areas where appreciation has been very strong. Also, it should be noted that I am using value as the generic variable for setting the appraisal, when in fact the appraisal fee is set by difficulty of the property but since they are highly directly correlated it seems to work okay. Obviously if it was value alone the appraiser when near the change in fee would have incentive to come in at or above the fee.

All this being said I think my argument still holds true, except you have a temporary situation where property appreciation has outpaced inflation (more so in California), creating these jumps in appraisal fees greater than average inflation. I also think that Fannie Mae supports my argument because of the licensing issues, and who can perform higher property value appraisals.

And, don't forget about appraisal management companies, that's the exact same issue as signing services.

Reply by davidK/CA on 9/11/06 2:51pm
Msg #145212

In California, and especially the SF Bay Area...

There is much evidence to support the fact that the total cost of getting a loan has risen dramatically over the last few years (ignoring the points which are driven by other forces). Almost every single fee charged by the title and escrow companies has gone up, in fact the Insurance Commissioner (who regulates the title and escrow industry in California) proposes that fees be reduced by 43%. Has the typical California NSA seen their fees rise by 43% over the past few years? I think not.

Yes, appraisers have licenses requirements and perform a valuable service, but they typically get paid directly by the borrower outside of escrow and mostly in advance, or they are listed directly and specifically named on the HUD-1. Not so for the notary. If you work for a SS, the most common situation is the fee shows up with the name of the SS in the full amount being charged to the borrower. No splits between SS and Notary, just one name and number.

I'm not picking on the appraiser, it's just that because they are the beneficiaries of political activity resulting in legislation and generally accepted business practices their profession gets paid with or without a completed closing, mostly up front. No bad debts, no long waits for partial payment, no excuses about lost invoices, etc. No appraisal = no loan. No title company = no loan. No notary = no loan. Why are we treated differently?

In my mind, the answer is we have no political power because the only nationally known organization "representing" the notary (the NNA) doesn't really represent the notary. The NNA represents themselves. We need a real representative organization that is concerned about the business success of the NSA, not selling classes and supplies. Until that exists, the SS will continue to be in a position of absolute advantage over the NSA.

And that's why the SS reduce our fees wheverever possible. Because they can, and except for the refusal of an individual assignment we are powerless.

Reply by Zana Darrow on 9/11/06 2:38pm
Msg #145205

Re: I agree with most of what you say Nate...

Title companies are also issuing title insurance when researching a property. That fee goes up with the value because there is "more' to cover should there be errors on their search. Just like hazard insurance.

Appraisers also assume large liabilities in their work and extreme fines should they fudge. My friend who is an appraiser has been in court several times as an expert witness on real estate court hearings. Valuation has minute details to attend to.

We have our own concerns. First and foremost Id'ing the borrowers. These lenders and TC's forget that they have id'd someone without meeting the actual body that is talking to them about borrowing a lot of money. We confirm that that is really Mrs borrower and not MS Mistress or Mr al quida. We are also the ones that get the all imporatant signitures in all the right places. Not just anyone can do that...you have to be a notary. That has value.
I have no doubt that the staff that does the processing, calling and other suportive roles in the birth of a loan get paid. Add the cost of doing business and time, there is no excuse for not paying the notary. After all the very nature of a Notary is to have no interest, financial or otherwise, in the documents. Every confirmation is just that, you are being hired to do x for $x. Its a contract.

Reply by VERONICA DESCHANEAU on 9/11/06 3:02pm
Msg #145216

a long long long time ago when I first started in this business, I would get an occasional Navy Federal signing. Because I come from a long line of men (and woman) who served in the military, I extended my services to navy federal at a low low fee of 25.00 on the conditions that the borrower is a veteran and the discount is extended to the borrower. I did that for three years; but keep in mind, Navy Federal was not a regular client, so I was probably closing 5 or 6 of their loans per year. After a bit of time, I called Navy Federal to ask how the discount worked for them...their response...WHAT DISCOUNT? The signing service NEVER charged less than their normal amount. Now Navy Federal calls me directly for all of their closings in my area and beyond. They pay me a nice fee for those little packages and I get them frequently too.

Reply by Christine Wynne on 9/12/06 11:07am
Msg #145454

Sometimes I would love to be paid the state's statutory fee for the number of notarized signatures. Here in Florida, that is $10/signature. I can't tell you how many signings I have done where there are 12-14 signatures, yet I am only being paid $75.

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/12/06 12:23pm
Msg #145468

Christine hit the nail on the head

**Sometimes I would love to be paid the state's statutory fee for the number of notarized signatures. Here in Florida, that is $10/signature. I can't tell you how many signings I have done where there are 12-14 signatures, yet I am only being paid $75.**

At around $6 per notarization, in a double signer package, especially an RM package or a sub-prime lender, that's easy enough over $100 in many, many instances. Esp. w/ Tx Title Docs.

I have wanted to bring this up so many times, but felt it would be shot down because of the tiny one notarization packages which are seen in Ca., et al.

Remember, in Ca...say for someone like CaliNotary who is doing many equity signings each day, where signings only take a few minutes, the amount of the signing could easily be 1/2 of what they should cost the TC for aTexas signing.

I am laughing right now at a call I just got from a new RM LO. She "heard" that the docs are voluminous. Yeah. And, she's just been told that she might have to print them out.

No. The notary usually does that.

Would you?

Sure! Do it allllll the time.

And you'll ONLY charge me $25 to print two sets, plus $xxx.xx?

Yep. That's it.

See...from the NON-jaded view of a new LO who is glad to see that amount on the HUD for me, she sees the point of having an experienced RM notary doing it for her. She thinks I am cheap.

It's not ME being crazy about amounts being offered ($50-$60-$75), it's the old mushroom syndrome. Keep the new notary in the dark and feed them you-know-what, take half their fee and laugh alllll the way to the bank.