Posted by sue_pa on 9/21/06 1:41pm
Msg #147505
reverse mortgage - id
This is directed to those of you who do a lot of these. Have your borrowers been informed ahead of time they need current identification? I've got a cancer patient who was told she could use her Costco card (because it has her photo) and her marriage license. I've insisted she go get a state id card. I'm expecting an irate phone call from the LO shortly - I naturally will ask him why he didn't give them the real requirements in sufficient time for her to get a card. CA notaries - don't suggest credible witnesses/complete strangers - we don't have that funky option here.
| Reply by Peg on 9/21/06 1:53pm
Msg #147506
Re: reverse mortgage - id ahahah good one! :) n/m
| Reply by cyndi_ca on 9/21/06 2:20pm
Msg #147515
Costco card? That's too funny! n/m
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/21/06 2:25pm
Msg #147519
Re: reverse mortgage - id - I must be lucky..
I've done 3 reverse mortgages in the past week - one client had already provided the photocopies (no collection required) and the other two had the photocopy ready for me
| Reply by PAW on 9/21/06 2:29pm
Msg #147520
>>> This is directed to those of you who do a lot of these. Have your borrowers been informed ahead of time they need current identification? <<<
Actually, yes. It is usually when I call to confirm the appointment. I tell them what forms of ID are acceptable to the state for the notarizations that are required. I also tell them it may be different than what the lender will accept.
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/21/06 2:32pm
Msg #147526
I had the feeling they already knew - they were very knowledgeable about the requirements at the signing.
| Reply by PA_Notary_II on 9/21/06 2:32pm
Msg #147525
Sue: on pg 20 of your PA Notary manual (Notaries Public in Pennsylvania A Position of Public Trust) there is a paragraph entitled "Determining the Identity of Person Appearing" It sure is different in PA.. "The proper method for determining the identity of a person appearing before a Notary under the amended Notary Public Law is that the "officer notarizing the instrument shall know through personal knowledge or have satisfactory evidence that the person appearing before the notary is the person described in and who is executing the instrument."
Personal knowledge as defined in the amended Notary Public Law means having an acquaintence, derived from an association with the individual in relation to other people and based upon a chain of circumstances surrounding th individual, which establishes the individual's identity. Satisfactory evidence means the reliance on the presentation of a current, government-issued identification card bearing a photograph or signature or physical description and serial or identification number or the oath or affirmation of a credible witness who is personally known to the notary and who personally knows the individual.
Therefore, Sue, I would say we are, indeed able to use a credible witness, and what's more, in PA, it would appear that we are not obligated to use a driver's license as I.D. If you interpret the rules as they are stated, you could use a Soc Sec card, because it has a 'serial number' and a signature, and is government issued. As far as I can see, the laws are pretty easy to follow and conform to. More is always better, of course, but the way the Notary Law is written, you only need to follow these guidelines and satisfy yourself that the person signing your doc is the person you ID'd. Comments?
| Reply by Susan Kostalas on 9/21/06 2:56pm
Msg #147540
As a 'signing agent' I have much stricter requirements than the state.
I know about our credible witness use here but for all practical purposes as a 'signing agent' it's not going to happen. In this case, I certainly don't know anyone that knows this lady.
I also know that I can use a ss card but I won't for anyone, unless it's backup for an expired photo id. I don't know any of my signers and without photo id I generally won't notarize - ss cards could have been signed 20 years earlier and I for one am not going to become a handwriting expert.
Like I said, I'll use a car registration or voters card or ss card as a backup for the state's requirement, but for myself, I want a photo.
I've suggested to PAN and to my senator that since the rules were changed a few years ago that people (other than notaries) should be informed but to no avail. I think if doctors told older patients to get an id card when they quit driving, if the orphans' court gave out notice with the marriage licenses about name changes, the prothy passed out notices when getting divorced, etc., my life would be a lot easier.
| Reply by PA_Notary_II on 9/21/06 2:58pm
Msg #147541
I agree, Sue...as I said, more is always better, and I always require photo ID along with a supporting secondary ID. But PA Notary law is explicit, if not the most desirable.
| Reply by Jon_PA on 9/21/06 3:00pm
Msg #147543
While it is true that a SS card is meets the Pennsylvania's criteria for IDing a borrower. All the mortgages I have witnessed required a picture ID...almost all want a copy as well. I have not had to rely on a credible witness, but in discussing this possibility I was told most will not accept a credible witness because it will make the loan harder to sell. Does that sound like a "credible" reason? I don't know.
| Reply by PA_Notary_II on 9/21/06 3:05pm
Msg #147545
Jon: I was not refering strictly to loan closings and/or lender's or TC's requirements. Remembering that we are Notaries first, and NSA's second, I was quoting Notary Law. When we put on the signing agent's hat, we work for an explicit "employer" and, of course must fulfill their requirements. I was just separating those requirements from the bare bones requirements of the State of PA.
| Reply by Jon_PA on 9/21/06 3:11pm
Msg #147548
I understand what you meant now. I am curious...would you go ahead with a refi if all the customer had was a SS card. I was almost in that position, but the borrower could not find his SS card. His license had been suspended and the Signing Service told him he could use his tax return as ID.
| Reply by PA_Notary_II on 9/21/06 3:18pm
Msg #147549
Probably not, Jon. I would think that everyone has more than one form of ID available, be it a voter's registration card, Motor vehicle registration, passport, etc. If you're performing for a lender or TC, you would be obligated to satisfy THEIR wants and needs. If you're performing notary duties only, you've got to be true to yourself and satisfy your mind that what you're doing is right. Always better to be safe than sorry.
| Reply by dickb/wi on 9/21/06 3:28pm
Msg #147551
same in wi.............
the credible witness has to be personally known by BOTH the signer and the notary.....that is a huge factor because if you do, you probably also personally know the signer.........that has never happened for me............................govt issued photo id matching the name on the docs or it's a no go for me................
| Reply by Jon_PA on 9/21/06 3:43pm
Msg #147556
Thanks...I agree completely. n/m
| Reply by NOTARY_PA on 9/21/06 9:48pm
Msg #147649
PA_Notary_II...a SS card alone is not sufficient
PA laws are very specific and in my experience, much more strict than most states when it comes to identifying an individual.
I have found that it helps to pull the law apart and pay very close attention to the words "and" and "or" because it could make the world of difference.
I have had several experiences with properly identifying an individual and once I broke it down in outline form, it became very clear to me.
We are obligated to use a Government isssued ID such as a driver's license, State ID, Passport, etc...
57 P.S 158.1 DETERMINING IDENTITY OF PERSON APPEARING
The officer notarizing the instrument shall know through “personal knowledge” or have “satisfactory evidence” that the person appearing before the notary is the person described in and who is executing the instrument.
I. “SATISFACTORY EVIDENCE”
A. Government Issued ID, which MUST contain all (3), of the following:
1. Photograph
- AND-
2. Signature -or- Description (either or)
-AND-
3. Serial -or- Identification # (either or)
-OR-
B. The oath or affirmation of a Credible Witness who:
1. Must be personally known to the notary
-AND_
2. Must personally know the individual
NOTE:
In addition to the oath or affirmation, it is suggested but not required, that the notary public obtain a secondary form of identification, such as a Birth Certificate, Social Security Card, Student Id (which in most cases will bear a photo and serial# - or- identification #)
NEVER SHOULD WE RELY ON THESE SECONDARY FORMS OF IDENTIFICATION ALONE NOT EVEN A SOCIAL SECURITY CARD (I am not screaming, just want to call attention to this)
II. “PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE”
Having an acquaintance, derived from association with the individual in relation to other people -AND- based upon a chain of circumstances surrounding the individual.
Refer to the bottom of page 7 and the beginning of page 7 of the Pennsylvania Statutes, Title 57. Notaries Public which was revised on 3/30/2006
| Reply by PA_Notary_II on 9/22/06 8:40am
Msg #147725
Re: PA_Notary_II...a SS card alone is not sufficient
I never said it was. I downloaded the statute you cite and the wording is EXACTLY as I previously posted. The (OR) remains there. You may interpret it any way you wish, but the fact remains that IF you were to use only an SS card, it would pass muster with this statute.
Once again, we shoulder the responsibilities for our actions and should make consionable decisions when identifying a signer. Having said that, the law, as written, would support using a government issued ID bearing a 'serial' number and a signature.
| Reply by sue_pa on 9/22/06 11:44am
Msg #147796
Re: PA_Notary_II...a SS card alone is not sufficient
I agree that a SS card is acceptable but I just won't use it alone.
I guess I was really asking originally if there are a significant number of people without proper id.
| Reply by NOTARY_PA on 9/22/06 11:08pm
Msg #147947
Re: PA_Notary_II...a SS card alone is not sufficient - I lo
I do not wish to argue with you, however, I would like to shed a little light on the subject of proper identification, to other PA notaries who have an issue with interpreting the law correctly.
The law states VERBATIM (my use of parenthesis and CAPS is to call attention the the punctuation, which allows you to interpret the law correctly)
"satisfactory evidence" means the reliance on the presentation of a current (,) government -issued (,) identification card bearing a photograph (,) signature (or) description (and) serial or identification number
Again, I will say,
In order for the identification to be a VALID -AND- ACCEPTABLE Government Issued ID, it must contain the following:
1st and formost, it must ALWAYS be CURRENT (which you'll see above as being a requirement in addition to...)
1. Photograph
- AND-
2. Signature -or- Description (either or)
-AND-
3. Serial -or- Identification # (either or)
You are right, the -OR- does remain there, however, you must pay close attention to where it is located in the sentence, also , you are missing the (,)'s indicating (and or in addition to).
Thus, no matter how you choose to interpret the law, the fact still remains that the social security card only contains 2 of 3 requirements that need to be met in order to be considered a valid and acceptable form of identification. It is lacking the photograph of the person appearing before you.
1. YOU did say that it was...part of your message copied below...
"and what's more, in PA, it would appear that we are not obligated to use a driver's license as I.D. If you interpret the rules as they are stated, you could use a Soc Sec card, because it has a 'serial number' and a signature, and is government issued"
COPIED FROM PA_Notary_II's previous post.
We COULD NOT use a social security card alone to identify an individual due to the reason I stated above
2. The statute that I site, is NOT EXACTLY as you previously posted, as your use of the word
-or- indicates that as long as the ID is government issued and has ANY (1 or more)of the requirements I list above, then it is ok.
"Satisfactory evidence means the reliance on the presentation of a current, government-issued identification card bearing a photograph (OR) signature (OR) physical description (AND) serial (OR) identification number COPIED FROM PA_Notary_II's previous post.
I've of course capitalized and placed parenthesis around the the words that make a WORLD of difference and to call attention to it.
Once again, I do not wish to argue with you  Just want to clarify
You'll more than likely not see this message, as I am a day late, but at least the new notaries who perform a search on Identification in PA will have both interpretations, both the right and then yours
In addition, I work with several attorney's who also seem to INTERPRET this law in the same manner....
...but as you stated, to each his own
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