Posted by CJ on 10/22/07 3:30pm
Msg #217687

Kevetching about hidden notary instructions.

(Disclaiamer: if you think I am wrong or whining too much, just say so. No reason to call names and recommend I get fired. I am just blowing off steam, but I will try to do better in the future.)

I got a call from SS:
"Didn't you read page 23 of the closing instructions?! You were supposed to sign in blue ink, get a pay stub, and a letter of explaination!" No I didn't read it. I never read closing instructions. Up until now, if I was supposed to use a certain color ink, or pick up something, They put that informaton in my work order. I told them I was sorry, and I would do better in the future, but I feel like it is not supposed to be my job to read ever page of the docs just in case there is something for me. I do look for signature spaces and review figures with borrowers though.

A couple days later, I have another job with this comany. It is email. I print and go. I look for the closing instructons, but it is a heloc, and there are just a couple of pages. No instructions for me. But at the END of the stack, but still buried in the papers, there is a page that says, "Attention Notaries! Be sure to print 2 copies of the DOT and return all three originals." Nuts. Fortunatley, we were signing at their office, and we made some copies, but it was a little hectic: they brought Mom, Dad, Toddler, nursing toddler, Grandma, and small dog. Keeping eveything under contorl during the signing was hard in the conference room. Wife and Grandma only had to sign owners docs, not borrower's docs, so there was a lot of, "Don't sign this one, but DO sign this one. And "trustee here, but no trustee here. Yes you have to sign twice".

I remembered that this SS bawled me out about the blue ink, so I made a point to use blue ink. Dropped docs.

I get home, and there are more email docs from this company for upcoming job. I double check: yes, they want 2 copies of DOT. But I found another buried sheet, which I did not see before that said, "must sign in black". This memo was also buried towards the end of the stack. $15 deducted for non-compliance.

I called the company and explained that I need to know on the work order if they have speical instructoins, becuase I can't be digging through every page of every loan looking for hidden memos. They said the docs come from the bank, and they have no control over that. But she did say they have a list of all their clients requirements, and if I have a question, I can call them. I don't know when I am about to do something wrong. Should I call them ever time to see what color ink to choose? I asked for their clients' list of requirements, but they said that was confidentical.

I am trying to do a good job, and I am trying to not make mistatkes, and I am trhing to be on top of what they want, but I think they need to put forth some effort on their end. All the other SS tell me on the work orders what they want. I don't want to look like a stupid, sloppy notary, and I want them to look good for their clients too.

Okay. What do you think?

Reply by Phillip/TX on 10/22/07 3:39pm
Msg #217689

Been there done that too... back in the day... but the companies I close for are almost always the same, so I know the requirements. But the signing company that hires you, needs to tell you the specific requirements for that loan, if they dont know, then it is there job to find out. You work for them, thus they are to advise you of all specific changes to the norm.

I do however go thru my docs before I leave the office/house, so that I know what is in the package, if you did this, you would have seen that they needed 3 copies of DOT and what color of ink to use.

I am not taking sides, just stating that we as a notary/closing agent have to sometimes take an extra step... because remember not all this SC know the first thing about actually closing a package!! They read from a script... just like the telemarkers from over seas do, when they call you...

Live and learn, and it helps to blow off steam, I am sure you felt better as soon as you clicked the "post" button.

Reply by Sharon Taylor on 10/22/07 3:59pm
Msg #217693

I disagree with you, Phillip - SS need to clearly state Qs

It is ridiculous to think we are going to go page by page by page through some 100 to 125 pages of documents just in case the lender or title company buried something in the pile.
Look at Countrywide, for example - they have some 24 pages of "Closing Instructions", and not one syllable of that is for us as notaries. The entire 24 pages is for the "Closing Agent", the person who is supposed to be reviewing the signed package, making sure all requirements have been met, funding the loan, filing paperwork, etc.
Most of us do indeed go through OUR confirmation and instruction pages that are specifically targeted toward the notary and have specific requirements for us, but we don't generally sit down with the printed package and peruse every single word on every single page just in case somewhere in the massive amount of verbiage there might be an "Oh, by the way, the notary needs to......"
Those instructions should be spelled out either in the confirmation or the pages of specific instructions to the notary. Heck, if these SS can put nonsense like "be sure your hair is neat" and "don't wear shorts to the closing" in the instruction sheets, they can surely find space to put critical things like "If the lender is xxxx, you need to make 3 copies of the DOT" and "If the lender is xxxx, use blue ink. If the lender is xxxx, use black ink."
It's nice to have time to go through the package before you leave the house, but how many times have you been running so tight for time that you are hovering over the printer, grabbing the last sheet hot off the feeder, and running for the car because the title company sent them late. I quickly scan through the package to be sure it's complete, but if there's a small sentence or two buried in a mess of unrelated wording on say page 114 of the paperwork, it's pretty hard to catch on the fly.
My personal favorite is the company that put a "YOU MUST USE BLACK INK" instruction as the 4th page from the bottom in a 137 page package!
My runnerup favorite is the one where the title company and SS put "YOU MUST USE BLUE INK" in the confirmation and notary instructions while there is an instruction sheet from the lender about 1/3 down in the package that threatens the notary with unspeakable horrors if he/she does not use black ink. Yes, I called on that one and was told to ignore the lender's instructions.

Reply by Phillip/TX on 10/22/07 4:07pm
Msg #217695

Re: I disagree with you, Phillip - SS need to clearly state Qs

I dont think I worded my statement correctly Sharon, I did not mean for you to go thru and read every page or document. I just meant that if you go thru the docs beforehand that you would see that page 4th up from the bottom that says to use black ink or that you need 3 copies of the DOT, that is all I am saying, I dont read the instruction pages either... well not after the first time I received one and found that there was nothing for me in it.

But spending a little time to be prepared regardless of when the docs got there... if the title company did not send the docs to me in time to be on time... that is their issue and they call the borrower to tell them that I will be late... I still look thru the documents to see what is there, so that I dont come across one that I am not familar with and appear to be unprepared in front of the borrower.

So I do agree that the SS needs to spell out what is expected... you didn't read the part that where I said that they don't all have the first clue of what goes into an actual closing to begin with.

Not an expert, I just know what works for me, just wanted to share that with CJ, and I am sorry if I should have not said anything.

Reply by Lee/AR on 10/22/07 4:09pm
Msg #217696

Agree with Sharon & original poster...

It is not our job to read 125 +/- pages on the off-chance that their might be some additional instructions. (23 pages of instructions is totally NUTS... I assumed that it was Escrow Instructions---if so, we ain't Escrow.) Nor are we--nor should we be--their Quality Control Dept. Now, if they want me to do that, I'll be happy to---for $50 additional fee & calls to a Toll Free line that's answered by a live person who knows the answer.

Reply by natogan on 10/22/07 4:17pm
Msg #217699

I totally agree with Phillip. When I print out docs I thoroughly go through each page, see if any discrepancies are there, and flag them. Sometimes title companies put only one page RTC instead of 2 or TIL (some title co require 3-5). Yes, we must be scrupulous, and dependable on the companies instructions. Good luck!

Reply by CopperheadVA on 10/22/07 4:30pm
Msg #217701

That's true, you should always check to make sure there are enough RTC's. But ultimately that is the lender's job to include all docs. They should be putting the required number in the package so when it's printed out, the requisite number is already included. Countrywide almost always has only one RTC in the package. I would bet there are probably many loans that have been closed where the borrower did not receive the required number of RTC's - how can lenders be sure the notary is printing out extra ones? We all know that there are some real doofuses out there doing loan closings (the ones that don't read Notary Rotary, for example). I had one recently where the docs were super late and in my haste to get to the appt I plain forgot to check for RTC's before I left. There were two copies for husband but only one for his wife. I had to ask the borrower to make a copy on his scanner so we would be in compliance. Why do the lenders even chance the possibility that the required RTC's are not given to the borrower?

Reply by CopperheadVA on 10/22/07 4:12pm
Msg #217697

I try to go over docs ahead of time as Phillip/TX suggested, however sometimes that is not possible due to late docs. Also, I will not spend an inordinate amount of time going over docs prior to the appointment and I don't read 23 pages of closing instructions. If there are special requirements such as ink color, multiple copies of specific docs, etc, then that info should be first up in the package in bold type listed as Notary Instructions and yes, that should be included on the order confirmation. If the SS has that info, they need to make the notary aware as per whichever client that job is for - that is part of the SS job and they should be serving their client better by making sure the notary has that info so they can perform the job properly and make the SS look good.

If there are no specific instructions listed for ink color, I do try to scan the closing instructions to find that info. If it's a Countrywide, my experience says always use blue ink unless instructed otherwise. I know it's very frustrating when you look and look, and somehow miss the ink color they want when it's not told to you up front, only to find it later. I agree that the notary should not have to dig through the entire package looking for hidden special instructions that may or may not be there.

My suggestion is that each time you do a job for that particular SS, after they send you the confirmation reply back asking if there are any special instructions for that particular job.

Reply by Phillip/TX on 10/22/07 4:14pm
Msg #217698

That is all I was trying to say too Copperhead!!! n/m

Reply by CJ on 10/22/07 4:27pm
Msg #217700

I appreciate the information from both sides.

I didn't know if I was "sloppy", or if they were "unreasonable". I used to do many jobs a day. I always grabbed them and ran. It was Countrywide that wanted me to read page 23 of the loan docs. I think I have been sigining them in black for years, and no one ever said anything. The "make extra copies of the DOT" comes up about once a month, so by the time I get the job again, I forgot. Plus, they want a copy of ID, and I don't see requests for that anywhere.

Thanks for ALL of you letting me know that I wasn't crazy. I feel better.

Reply by Phillip/TX on 10/22/07 4:31pm
Msg #217702

Re: I appreciate the information from both sides.

On the copy of ID, I make that a staple in my confirmation with the borrower, even if the lender or title company does not ask for it... they get it... plus in Texas we cannot list their information in our notary logs as of April 2007, but if the lender or title company requests the copy they must supply it, it is not for my use but for theirs.

Glad you feel better... that is what counts.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/22/07 4:43pm
Msg #217703

Here's what I think - My wish list

For what it's worth, here is a pretty much unedited portion of a post I made elsewhere a while back in response to someone from a tc who was "helpfully" trying to inform on the "right" way to do things:

"... On the same day, we could have another assignment (or two or more) from different companies who have the same perspective (that "our way is the right way", but different requirements. In fact, their "must do's" might be exactly opposite from what your company wants done. It would make it much easier for us and greatly increase compliance if everyone realized this and did a better job of communicating to us in a clear way what those particulars are.

"This directly relates to the thread below about threats re: fees being docked. Here's my wish list to SSs, TCs, and any other hiring entity if you want to increase compliance with whatever issues you are having problems with: Please provide a simple bulleted list of concise requirements right up front, either with the documents or included in the confirmation, i.e something that we don't have to dig through multiple pages of detail to find. I would recommend a separate list for the real obvious stuff any professional NSA should already know (in case you aren't paying enough to be able to hire those who already do know this stuff...) Secondly, I would have no problem with fees being docked if I got a bonus for everyone of YOUR errors (i.e. lender / escrow / title) I found and helped get fixed so that the loan could fund on time...

"Additionally, it's very frustrating to have to pore through multiple pages of things that SHOULD go without saying, such as advising that we need to confirm our appointment, dress professionally, return docs promptly, etc., in order to find out that we need a certain color ink (some insist on black, some insist on blue - and I don't want to find where it says that half way through the package), or that we can't make any stray marks, cross-outs or corrections to anything printed or written, or that we need to initial every page of certain docs, etc. And most importantly, please have someone competent do a grammar, spelling and content check to make sure that your instructions are understandable and not easily open to misinterpretation. (I realize you'll never be able to get it foolproof for everyone, but there's lots of room for improvement with some of what I'm sure we've all seen.)

"One other pet peeve [yes, I know this is petty, but I did say this was a wish list...]: having these instructions typed in very big, bold or colored print does not make them easier to read or more likely to be reviewed. It just means that it uses more of our toner and paper and is more of an annoyance. A simple, readable font and size (12 or 14, at most s/b adequate), in a bulleted list with adequate white space around it (preferably on one page, two max, if absolutely necessary) is most likely to actually get printed, read, and taken to the appointment. (And BTW, many thanks to those of you savy enough to put the borrower name, address & contact info right up front where it can be easily referred to. Same for instructions for returning docs.)"

Like I said, just FWIW!

Reply by Charles_Ca on 10/22/07 4:59pm
Msg #217706

OT totally but Janet is close to me in SoCAl, can you see

the fire from Lake Forest. I understand that there is a lot of smoke and debris according to my neighbors in Mission Viejo where my home is (I'm North of Trabuco and just South fo the Lake) and you could see the flames from our backyards. Sorry for the off topic but Janet is close by. I hope you and yours are doing well. I have not been able to get an idea of the direction of the flames but I unerstand that they are mainly in Santiago Canyon and at the end of Portola an don't seem to be heading in our direction.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/22/07 5:15pm
Msg #217708

See my post below, too...

I'm watching it on TV right now. It has hit Foothill Ranch, very close to homes there. They at least have air drops coming in now. I heard it's moving toward MV, but I would think that both of us are far enough away from the undeveloped brush to be OK. Where I am (also close to Trabuco), I can't see flames, but the smoke is definitely noticeable. I've been watching it move on the horizon to the south (?), i.e. parallel with Saddleback mtn. Doesn't look like it's quite got to Mission Viejo yet. This sure is a humbling experience!!

Reply by MistarellaFL on 10/22/07 5:30pm
Msg #217709

This exanple is exactly why I don't work for SS anymore

The ridiculous lack of communication between the TC and the notary closer.
Working directly with TC's, they make sure I am aware of any lender requirments.
There are too many imbeciles working for SS who have no idea what they should be
advising us of.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 10/22/07 5:37pm
Msg #217711

Re: This example is exactly why I don't work for SS anymore

I agree - working directly for TC's I rarely have this kind of issue. You would think that particular SS would be proactive in letting its notaries know what each job requires. It's ridiculous to say "If you had asked us, we would have told you!" Makes SS look bad (rightly so) if notaries are not following directions (through no fault of their own).

Reply by MichiganAl on 10/23/07 12:21am
Msg #217766

It really is quite telling

These kinds of issues are so few when working directly with the t.c. But that extra layer and disconnect between the t.c. and the signing agent really contributes to errors and miscommunication.

Reply by CJ on 10/22/07 5:39pm
Msg #217712

My wish list: I would LOVE that list.

If I were a signing service, I would do everything I could to be clear to my notaries so that all my docs came back as perfect as possible.

Reply by MichiganAl on 10/22/07 9:10pm
Msg #217732

My instruction wish list is simple (and similar to yours)

Instructions should be the top page of the package. Period.
They should be one page, no more. Any more and you're just way too fussy to work with anyway.
As you said, don't make me scan worthless stuff on how do dress, what not to talk about, and what it takes to be professional. If you've got to put this in closing instructions, you're hiring the wrong people and no checklist is going to save them. They'll just find new ways to be idiots.
If you want two HUDs, include two HUDs. If you want three mortgages, include three mortgages. If the package needs four RTCs, include four RTCs. I should be able to get the package, hit print, and be done with it. We've got 100 different companies with 100 different ways they want it printed. Why take the chance? Send it the way you want it and you don't have to worry about it.
And bold letters and 18 exclamation points don't make me notice your instruction on how to fill out the next form. My brain skips right by it.
Dump the list of what we'll be docked for if we screw up. If I had a $5 bonus for every signing I saved or for every time I had extra work because of doc mistakes, I'd retire rich. I handle it quietly, efficiently, and with no recognition or fanfare. So if I screw up, I'll make it right.

All that said, I do scan the entire package for instructions. I just don't think I should have to.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 10/22/07 7:00pm
Msg #217717

They've offered you a solution - why not use it?

<< But she did say they have a list of all their clients requirements, and if I have a question, I can call them. >>

You now know that this is going to be an ongoing problem with this SS, so why not just take them up on their offer? Rather than beating yourself up for making mistakes you didn't know about, you need to be a little more proactive. When they give you the assignment, ask who the client is and then ask whether there are any specific requirements. Or do that when you get the docs. They have the info you need, they're just too lazy to put it into the confirmation.

Don't assume they're going to put forth any effort unless they have to; if they're telling you that you have to ask if you're not sure... ASK! It means a lot less stress for you. Your only other option is to read through every package they send you, which is not a good use of your time - just push it back on them BEFORE you go to the signing.

If you do enough work for these people, they may eventually realize that you're going to ask for the info on every job and might actually start adding it to the confirmation. I wouldn't hold my breath, but it could happen...

Reply by Ndwa on 10/22/07 10:26pm
Msg #217747

I'll speak from both sides

As an SS I'm the direct servicer to TC/Lenders. It's my responsibility to know my client's requirements then communicate to notaries. I have four different confirmation forms where each is specifically used for each client. It's my fault if I don't communicate the specifics to notaries and I'd stand to loose my livelihood before putting the blames on notaries.

On the other hand, while it only takes 10 seconds to call/email me for certain thing I requested at the very top of a confirmation with bold type, but many still don't comply.

Reply by CJ on 10/22/07 10:49pm
Msg #217752

It does only take 10 seconds to call,

But what if I start calling all the SS to see if there are any hidden instructions that I don't know about? That is riduculous, which is why I get a work order: Sign in black, pick up photo of ID, fax back RTC, and DOT.

When I am (was) zipping from house to house, I can't remember, "Oh yeah, I did one of these two months ago, they like something special". I am really thinking, "Am I running late? Where is the next work order? Okay, here are the docs. Step on the gas."

I think I will start calling these people from now on though. They told me today that one kind of Countrywide wants one thing, and another kinds wants another thing. I do think it is the job of the SS to let me know up front what it is their client wants. They could have some attachments ready to go in their computer, and attach the correct one with the work order when they send it over. Lots of companies do that.

Reply by Pat/IL on 10/22/07 10:30pm
Msg #217748

Re: The Signing Service Is Not The Solution

As Mistarella pointed out, these problems don't arise when dealing directly with the title company. There should not be a problem when the middle man is involved either. The title company is bound by contract to follow lenders' instructions and should make every effort to do so.

The title closers have to read every word of the ridiculous closing instructions anyway. They would do well to extract any particulars relevant to the signing agent, make that bullet-point list and include it with the title docs.

It will save the title company grief, time and effort in answering complaints and fixing notary errors that would not have occurred if they (the title closers) had taken a single minute to type up a short list. My company does it as a rule and it works famously!

I hope all of you Southern Californians are safe in your families, homes and businesses.

Reply by Sandy/CT on 10/23/07 10:19am
Msg #217807

I agree with you!
Everything is so confusing... when you get used to one company putting everything on top & then other companies hiding material. There are so many different rules, it is hard to learn the RIGHT way. I don't understand why some companies want blue ink...what is the difference??
I also find that most of the ss don't know the right way either..which makes it even more confusing.
I think that there should be one rule for everything...just like in the exam books.
Including a pay schedule for notaries on various mortgages & programs.

Reply by MelissaCT on 10/24/07 8:26am
Msg #217955

Re: The problem with

a pay scale is location and experience. I have 4 years in this, others have over 10 in various aspects of the industry. The NNA tried to come up with a pay scale & look what that's done to the business! We are Independent Contractors and are obliged to come up with our own pricing based on what we feel our time and experience is worth. Of course, what the market will bear also comes into play.

This is why it is critical to have a business plan. This is a business & if you, as the owner of your business, don't know what your overhead expenses are, don't know what you use in supplies each week/month/year what you need as a bottom line figure to stay afloat and what profit margin you need to operate successfully -- you will fail. Just take a look at all the SS going under. One client can break them. They miss a beat & they're sunk -- along with every notary that they owe.

A viable business plan is essential. Not having one is likely why most small businesses fail within a short period of time. Always look at the worst case scenario, double it, then refine your business plan from there. If you need $100/month to cover expenses, base your plan on needing $200/mo, then build in your profit margin. How much volume do you need to meet your plan? What is your baseline fee you will need to charge to meet your monthly operating plan? Heaven forbid if you actually have a great month & are able to stash some cash in a savings vehicle (whatever plan is flexible enough & will work for your business) for a rainy day. A business plan should encompass everything and be flexible enough to change with the tide.

Sorry to get on a tangent, but from your posts it appears that you haven't formulated a business plan and that you expect fees and everything to be provided for you, like you are working for someone else. The only "right way" is the way a particular client wants their transactions to be handled. Blue or black? Different lenders have different standards. Some want blue because it's easier to decipher originals from copies, or because blue is their favorite color.

Life doesn't have one rule for everything, neither does the business.