Posted by ToniK on 10/13/07 2:54pm
Msg #216383

Need some advice/feedback

Ok I did a signing for a couple the other day. In the packet there was a few things I was unsure about. BO's claim there was a debt being paid off that wasnt their's. So we called the LO and no one answered. We elft messages on several numbers. So I called the SS that hired me and she recommended that the BO's dont sign the HUD and continue with the signing. Ok so the BO's agreed to that. Then the other stuff came up.

DOT- had both names one first page but didnt have wife name on last page. I had her sign anyways.

Note had husband name NO WIFE. So I didnt have her sign it.

Rider-had husband name NO WIFE. So I didnt have her sign it.

Affidavit for tax proration- had blank space which was supposed to be filled in with an amount. didnt notarize it nor had BO sign it becuase of the blank spaces.

TIL had husband name NO WIFE. So she didnt sign.

SS calls me (while Im on the road) and tells me that the Title company says I, Toni, have made several errors and was missing signatures and didnt notarize an affidavit. So I call the BO's and schedule to go out 11am today. She sends me the docs and I do a comparison on the first package I did and the second docs she sends. Comes to find out it is not my mistake, its the title or whoever drew up the papers. They added the wifes names to the docs stated above and filled in the blank space on the affidavit and claiming its my mistake. So I told the SS that its not my mistake and that I wont notarize a blank doc for a borrower, and the fact that they left the name of the wife off is not my isue to write in for them. So I will need to get paid for making another trip back out.

SS claims that I should continue with the signing and on Monday she will contact the title company to discuss a second payment and she would go to bat for IF what I told her is correct. Im thinking I dont want to get stiffed and do a free signing beause the title co made the mistake. Also I should get paid and I need to get her to put that in writing. I went to the signing anyways and have the docs but havent sent it off yet. I was going to wait until Monday and get the SS to send me an email stating my fee for going back out. Am I wrong for doing this or should I suck it up and just send the docs (wont get sent until Monday anyways since UPS dont pick up in my area on Saturday) for free?

Reply by Marilynn Wells on 10/13/07 3:12pm
Msg #216386

I've heard of notaries doing this kind of thing before. To the best of my knowledge, it is illegal to hold the docs "hostage" over fee issues. I think I understand your dilemna, as the errors on the first set of docs were not your fault, and you're in a position to try to prove that. It's hard to remember that since we're at the end of the line in these transactions, it is convenient to blame mistakes on the notary. IMO, a call should have been made from the table that the docs weren't correct. There was no point in continuing until corrected docs were drawn up. That has only happened to me twice, but when I called it in I was paid a double fee for going back. I would not hold those docs -- if it holds up funding on the loan I think you could be in some serious trouble.

Reply by ToniK on 10/13/07 3:25pm
Msg #216387

A call was made from the table to the settlement company. They said to call the LO. We did that and no answer. The phone number I had on confirmation jsut rang. The SS gave me a number and it just rang but yet the LO called her just 30 mins before but wont answer 30 mins later. The BO's had numbers and no one answered. I was all for stopping the signing but the SS said continue and the BO's agreed to. As for the DOT, TIL, Affidavit, Note. I did exactly what was instructed, dont have more signatures that what they ask for. Im thinking of just going straight to the Title since I have thier email now and voice my opinion becuase they know that the SS hasnt seen the docs so telling the SS it was my mistake and her beliving it makes it harder for me to get paid. But if I send an emil and CC the SS on what I know about the mistake I have a beter chance of getting paid. Would that be better?

Reply by Charles_Ca on 10/13/07 3:39pm
Msg #216389

My philosophy is that if I followed the instructions, and

arrived at the borrowers and the documentation is wrong it is not my fault and I earned the fee for the signing. If they want me to go out a second time then it is another fee. The SS tries to blame the notary because they don't want to make waves.

Reply by Sergio Cardenas on 10/15/07 6:48am
Msg #216489

Re: My philosophy is that if I followed the instructions, and

I like your philosophy here ...but when is the SS made aware of the additional fee for having to make 2nd trip to borrower's??? I mean, do you let them know if they bring it up or do you mention it when iniatially accepting the signing?

What if you complete a loan doc signing - but later learn that the loan gets cancelled or borrower doesn't go thru with it? Do you forget about payment????

Sorry for all the questions... I'm a victim of all these scenarios and want to avoid them.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 10/13/07 3:43pm
Msg #216390

I think the only mistake you may have made was to not have the wife sign the TIL, since she was on the DOT and has an interest in the property. Since she was listed on the DOT, she had to sign even if they left her name off the signature line. As far as the note is concerned, the only way you could know whether the wife was supposed to sign is by looking at the 1003 - unless state law says otherwise, if she's not on the application she usually doesn't sign the note (because she's not a co-borrower).

As far as proving whether you were right - you've got copies of the original docs, so fax them to the SS and title to show that the mistakes weren't yours. It's hard for them to say you screwed up when they're looking at a copy of the original docs.

I would drop the docs Monday whether the questions are resolved or not. Holding them hostage is not a good idea.

Reply by ToniK on 10/13/07 3:55pm
Msg #216392

1003 did not have the wife as co borrower. Husband said she was supposed to be only on the deed. But the instructions says "Sign exactly as name appears on docs" if her name doesnt appear on the doc, how can she sign? As a notary arent I supposed to witness the signing not complete the paperwork (as for adding names to it) for the Title company without permission?

Ok so I will send docs off Monday.

Reply by Treasure Valley Notary - Tina on 10/13/07 4:09pm
Msg #216398

Sign As Name Appears

ToniK,

You posted this question, after I responded to your original question. "Sign exactly as name appears on docs" means to do just that. If it says "John Doe" that is how the person signs. If it says "John W. Doe" that is how the person signs. That is what it is referring to. They don't want "John Doe" signing J.D. Doe or any other variation.

Please follow my first posting advice and get further training. Or you are going to be spending a lot of time going out to get things fixed. And no one will want, or should have, to pay you extra for that trip. You may also totally mess up a borrower and their lock in expiration date. Borrowers should not be our training grounds. Know what you are doing before you make a mistake that can't be "fixed."

Reply by ToniK on 10/13/07 4:28pm
Msg #216401

you should reread several times before responding

to fully understand what I typed. If I worded it wrong and you couldnt understand, just say so. as I can see you didnt understand what I wrote.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 10/13/07 5:32pm
Msg #216404

Non-borrowing spouses are suppose to sign the hud, til, rtc and dot. I cover MD & VA and that is how I do it. Never had them sent back and have only done 2 resigns in 11 years.
You will catch on after a while and know that.
The other thing I see here is a sloppy lender and title company that could not properly type the docs. It's called laziness or they have recent high school students doing the work for minimum wage. I see alot of blank refinance affs and I have the borrowers sign and I notarize the paper and the title company fills in the payoffs with any new money when the loan funds.

Reply by LJ on 10/13/07 5:53pm
Msg #216408

With due respect Loretta, there are 5 things (sometimes 6)

that need to be signed by non-borrowing spouse.
1. TIL
2. RTC
3. Itemization of Amt Financed
4. Compliance
5. DOT
6. Any riders attached to DOT

I never have non borrowing spouse sign HUD.
I have always had these signed and not 1 has come back on me.

Reply by janCA on 10/13/07 6:05pm
Msg #216411

Subjective

I have had lenders who want the NBS to sign the HUD and then there are those that don't want the NBS to sign the HUD. It's very subjective on what any lender wants the NBS to sign and it's not our job to second guess it.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 10/13/07 7:17pm
Msg #216415

Re: With due respect Loretta, there are 5 things (sometimes 6)

Really?
In all the years I have been doing loan signings quite often the only docs the non-borrowing spouse has had to sign is the mortgage and any riders, the TIL and the RTC.
Very few title companies have wanted any other of the docs signed.


And unless specifically asked by the title company have I had a non-borrowing spouse sign any docs. If I know there is a non-borrowing spouse and their name is not on a signature line then I will call the title company to ask if they want the spouse to sign any of the docs.
For me to make the decision for the spouse to sign any legal docs would be UPL.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 10/14/07 8:40am
Msg #216432

Re: With due respect Loretta, there are 5 things (sometimes 6)

Well, LJ, that's the way you have seen it done. Of course non-borrowing spouse would sign the rider because it is "part" of the deed of trust.
It depends on the lender and what is required and I was giving my p.o.v in the areas that I cover. I also agree with Syvia, it all depends on the lender.

Reply by NCLisa on 10/13/07 8:13pm
Msg #216421

It really depends on which state you are in. I have the non-borrowering spouse sign the DT, TIL, RTC and owners aff/lien waiver for all loans. Some lenders like the itemization of amount financed and a couple other docs signed by the NBS. I never have them sign the HUD. They aren't on the loan, therefore they should not be signing the HUD unless there is a line there iwth their name on it.

Reply by Dave_CA on 10/14/07 10:01am
Msg #216436

" I see alot of blank refinance affs and I have the borrowers sign and I notarize the paper and the title company fills in the payoffs with any new money when the loan funds."

I certainly don't know about MD but in CA it is not correct to notarize a document with blanks.

Are there other states that allow this?

Reply by ToniK on 10/14/07 10:13am
Msg #216438

Va doesnt.... n/m

Reply by Loretta Reed on 10/14/07 10:52am
Msg #216440

There is one lender here that drives me crazy with that one blank line. On the refi aff. they put in the new loan amount but leave the payoff line blank to fill in later. WMC Mortgage was the lender (they just went under, didn't they).

Reply by Rachel/ORWA on 10/14/07 9:34pm
Msg #216480

Oregon allows blanks in documents w/conditions.

Per the Oregon Notary Public Guide:

"If the customer chooses not to fill in the blanks, the notary public can, using his or her best judgment:

- Ask the customer to initial next to the blanks to indicate his or her knowledge of the deficiency and the notary notes it in the journal.

- Complete the notarization (noting in the notarial journal that there were blanks in the document and that the customer was aware of the blanks, but chose not to fill them in).

- Refuse to notarize (note in the notarial journal why the notarization was refused)."

Reply by Charles_Ca on 10/13/07 3:55pm
Msg #216393

I guess I'm missing something, Toni says that the TC and SS

both tell her that she missed sigs. How would they know that if she had not returned the docs. I must be missing something but nowhere do I see that Toni was holding the docs hostage: where did that come from?

Reply by Charles_Ca on 10/13/07 3:57pm
Msg #216394

So I'm wrong already, I guess the hostage question is

regarding the second set of docs.

Reply by Treasure Valley Notary - Tina on 10/13/07 4:02pm
Msg #216395

ToniK,

This is where there is a big difference between a newbie and an experienced loan signing agent. I live in a community property state and don't know about your area. BUT you had a non-borrowing spouse signing and I am going to assume it is being treated like a community property state, based on some of the things you stated in your original post. Whether their name is listed or not, you as a signing agent (different hat than notary) should know what your state laws are and how this is handled, because it is expected of you by the title companies. I'm not advocating being an attorney, but just know what you are doing during a signing. There are certain critical docs that need to be signed by the non-borrower. The DOT, riders, and TIL just being a part of it. And this is regardless of the non-borrowing spouses name being preprinted or not.

My personal feelings are that as part of our business we 100% guarantee our work. I send docs out regardless of any problems that may arrise with regards to my fee. I personally would do this job again at no charge. It is the cost of your on the job training at this point.

Before you go out again please get some further training. There are great resources available to you, starting with this website. Go back to the beginning and read it all. This topic has been covered before.

I know it can be frustrating when no one returns your calls, but a lot of times the LO doesn't even know these answers. And the SS should have! Good luck.

Reply by ToniK on 10/13/07 4:07pm
Msg #216397

I dont live in a community property state

Also I have done several signings where the non borrowing spouse was not listed and I didnt have them sign it. Never had an SS or title call me back and say it needs to be corrected. Now maybe because they went and got another notary but I have done repeat signings for those SS/Title companies so I must have done something right.

But thanks for you advice

Reply by Carmen/123 on 10/14/07 6:00pm
Msg #216457

Re: I dont live in a community property state

This is most likely due to the fact that the non borrower has previously signed off the property via a Grant Deed. In this case they would not be required ot sign anything.

Carmen

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/15/07 2:40am
Msg #216487

Re: I dont live in a community property state

Right. And wouldn't be listed on the vesting on the first page, either.

Reply by MichiganAl on 10/13/07 4:40pm
Msg #216403

Yep, that's the thing

We may not have the power to make the corrections on our own, but from experience we learn that it's important to know and understand the state requirements so we know when to make a call and what to ask. Just knowing my own state, if a spouse is on the mortgage I would have recognized that the spouse would also need to sign the TIL. Also, the rider that you're talking about is likely a rider to the mortgage (regardless of what order it might have appeared in your package). The wording would appear near the top of the page describing it as a rider to the mortgage or note. So if the spouse is signing the mortgage, they were probably supposed to sign the rider as well. You're not empowered to make those changes on your own, but you should have recognize that those docs needed signatures and asked the SS for instructions. If it were me, I'd feel responsible for not recognizing the issues and asking the right questions (even if whoever prepared the docs dropped the ball as well). Also, many times the spouse's name is not on the doc, but there are instructions in the package that tell you to have spouse sign certain docs if borrower is married. And did you call the SS to tell them you were skipping the tax proration document because a number wasn't filled in? Could that number have been found on another document and filled in by the borrower? Could the borrower have lined out the blank? I don't know, but I wouldn't have left the signing without having a conversation with the SS. All in all, I'd take responsibility for this, make it right on my own dime, and learn more about my state requirements.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/13/07 5:40pm
Msg #216405

I have asked this question before

and don't think I got an answer; if I did, I have forgotten it.

So since we are discussing this issue, here's the question:

Is there any state where a mortgage doesn't require the borrower to sign off to acknowledge that the primary home is being mortgaged?

Even if the spouse is not on title?

In Texas, it is my understanding that this must be done in both cases mentioned above unless there is another document such as a nuptial agreement that keeps that property separate from the other spouse, and even in that event the lender will still argue over it.

JK/TX can probably verify the accuracy or inaccuracy of this statement.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/13/07 5:44pm
Msg #216406

On the flip side...

Why, oh why, don't these people put the names on the documents where they need to sign?

Why does the signing agent have to waste time calling title and lending to verify what needs to be done?

and

Why if they don't do that is the signing agent held accountable for it?

If they want these things done right the first time, the document preparers should be on top of their business before they release the documents. I reckon that's why in Texas lawyers prepare the documents. Someone needs to be responsible for assuring that they are prepared properly.

Oughta, shoulda...yada yada yada

Reply by Linda Hubbell on 10/13/07 7:58pm
Msg #216420

Re: I have asked this question before

"Is there any state where a mortgage doesn't require the borrower to sign off to acknowledge that the primary home is being mortgaged"

Yep - CT - is a title state..

Reply by MikeC/NY on 10/13/07 10:37pm
Msg #216429

Re: I have asked this question before

<<Is there any state where a mortgage doesn't require the borrower to sign off to acknowledge that the primary home is being mortgaged?

Even if the spouse is not on title?>>

NY does not require a spouse not on title to sign off on a mortgage, even if it's the primary home.

Any property you own going into a marriage in NY is yours alone, unless you decide to add your spouse to the deed.

Reply by SReis on 10/13/07 11:20pm
Msg #216430

Re: I have asked this question before

MA - Non-borrower spouse NOT on title NOT req to sign if no homestead exists. However, BO often unsure re: the homestead & title usually req it to be safe. Whoever is on title, however, always needs to sign off; only makes sense because one person could mortg off the entire worth of the property w/o the other person even knowing about it.

Reply by Phillip/TX on 10/15/07 10:50am
Msg #216518

Re: I have asked this question before

Brenda, I can verify your above statement. As being in Texas as well.

I just had a closing on Friday that the husband (non-borrowering) was not listed on the DOT, TIL, RTC, Compliance nor the Rider to the DOT. I had him sign them all...

Title company called me this morning after they got the docs and thanked me for doing this, so as not to have to have them resigned.

Phillip

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/15/07 2:16pm
Msg #216562

Thanks, Phillip/TX and everyone...enlightening! n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/14/07 5:59pm
Msg #216456

Bingo!!

I have to agree. As I was reading Toni's original post, I was thinking point by point, how I would have handled it differently. If I determined that the spouse should sign the DOT/Mortgage (like being shown on the vesting), it would have been automatic to have that person also sign the TIL and Rider (unless it specifically said it was a Rider to the Note and not the DOT - but I would have checked). That just seems like common sense to me.

Also, on the Tax Aff, if the majority of the document is complete, but is missing a bit of info that may or may not even apply, I routinely have the borrower put NA in the space so it is no longer an incomplete document (i.e., no blanks) and I notarize it. Then they can decide if they can live with it that way or not. If I do nothing, there is NO chance for it to fly. I've never had anyone call me back on that. (This all assumes I was unable to reach anyone by phone.)

There are ways of handling these things that you learn after a while. And yes, it can be the difference between a newbie and an experienced SA. Sorry, Toni, but if I remember correctly what you said in the second message about the corrected package you received, I don't think I would have found myself needing that second trip in this particular situation. (And BTW, I'm still learning new things, after five years at this full time...)

Reply by CaliNotary on 10/13/07 4:33pm
Msg #216402

"SS claims that I should continue with the signing and on Monday she will contact the title company to discuss a second payment and she would go to bat for IF what I told her is correct. Im thinking I dont want to get stiffed and do a free signing beause the title co made the mistake. Also I should get paid and I need to get her to put that in writing."

You blew this by going out and getting the docs signed without having the fee issue settled. Now that you've already done it you need to send the docs back and hope you can work it out.

My prediction is that the TC is going to tell the SS that you're the one who screwed up and refuse to pay a second trip fee. And the SS isn't going to argue the fact too much and you're going to have made the second trip for free. If the TC were honorable they would have told the SS that they changed some docs and needed them resigned, but obviously they didn't do that, they blamed it on you.

Unless you have copies of the first set of docs (and if you don't, you might wanna call the borrower and see if they can fax you the pages from their copy), then it's your word against theirs, and since they're the ones who control what gets paid, you're gonna lose.

Next time stand your ground and refuse to go back out until you have the fee in writing.

And I agree with the others, you need some signing agent training. It IS our job to know what needs to be signed by somebody who is on the title but not on the loan and you should be able to catch the mistakes if they screwed up and left her name off of the rider and TIL. Not that it's entirely your fault, obviously they should have had the docs correct to begin with. But a good signing agent should easily be able to spot that error and get the correct signatures anyway.

Reply by ToniK on 10/13/07 6:38pm
Msg #216413

Lender Instructions and tax proration affidavit

Section VI:

"All papers must be signed as the legal documentation is typed. If you have information of the typed names as incorrect, please contact us immediately. No corrections, erasures, changes or substitutes may be made to the document without lender approval......"

The tax proration affidavit stated:

"The tax proration shown on the HUD-1 Settlement Statement and payment letter was in fact based on the lot assessment only and not based on improved property......"

The SS advised that the BO's dont sign the HUD due to some issues on the HUD. Nothing on the HUD states a tax proration but there is a tax revenue...Am I really expected to fill that stuff out?

Reply by NCLisa on 10/13/07 8:15pm
Msg #216422

Re: Lender Instructions and tax proration affidavit

Taxes aren't prorated unless it is a purchase.

Reply by Dennis_IN on 10/14/07 12:18pm
Msg #216441

If wife is only on title then you should know she signs The Mtg., TIL & RTC, + maybe the correction agreement and some Title docs.
I have found many instances where the printed names on mtg. or TIL are not complete. Most common is when borrowers name only is on the first page of Mtg. but both names are on the sig. page. You need to know this. I sometimes have to add her name to TIL.
But you are right in contacting SS or TC to confirm she is on title and to reaffirm that her name needs to be added to those doc. If I can not reach anyone (except Voice mail) I will put those docs aside, get the rest of pkg signed (giving someone time to respond), if I don't hear from anyone I use my better judgment and have person on title sign the appropriate docs.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/14/07 6:37pm
Msg #216463

And, if you have time ahead of the signing, make extra copies and have it signed both ways. I have done that since I first started and then I could reach key people afterwards to get the answer, then send in the appropriate one.