Posted by Ronnie_WA on 10/16/07 6:25pm
Msg #216796

shame on you for accepting a $100 edoc reverse in Puyallup

Shame on whomever accepted that assignment! You are devaluing our profession by accepting such lowball fees, even if they are close to you. Probably a woman. Suzie Orman says women are always devaluing their services and putting themselves on sale.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 10/16/07 6:37pm
Msg #216797

Wow Ronnie it's not too late to buy back what you just said

By the way how do you know what anyone else is getting paid for this?

Reply by Yoli/CA on 10/16/07 6:45pm
Msg #216798

"...women are always devaluing their services and putting

themselves on sale." That's a strongly denigrating statement. Would you like to retract?

Reply by Merry_CA on 10/16/07 6:49pm
Msg #216799

Re: "...women are always devaluing their services and putting

Ronnie was quoting Suzi Orman.

Reply by rengel/CA on 10/16/07 6:49pm
Msg #216800

That is HER opinion, why

should she retract it just because you disagree with it?

Reply by Merry_CA on 10/16/07 7:00pm
Msg #216805

Re: That is HER opinion, why

If you are addressing me.... Suzi may say anything she likes, it's her opinion.... I don't necessarily disagree. I think that as a sweeping generalization we women do devalue ourselves, especially in business. Women on this board have provided evidence of this over and over again. There is but a handfull of professional women running their own NSA businesses represented here... the rest are hobbyists treating this as "mad money".

Reply by Lee/AR on 10/16/07 7:09pm
Msg #216810

Re: That is HER opinion, why

Have to agree with Merry, but it's not limited to women; some men seem to treat this as mad money, too. My viewpoint is simply that if I want to do charity work, I will pick a worthy charity. Banks, Title Companies & Signing Services don't qualify. And accepting too low a fee devalues ALL of us and is a contributing factor to the downward trend. STOP, please. Now.

Reply by CJ/Alaska on 10/16/07 7:03pm
Msg #216808

Re: That is HER opinion, why

Do you mean a reverse mortgage? I havent had one yet so I dont know how much more complicated they are than the standard ones, Im afraid I would not know how to price it and I might come off as sounding too simple..
The thing tho, especially lately, when I get 'calls' - seems like all these agencies want to pay $40 to $60 for a mortgage - I personally think thats too low for what we do, but then if I hold to my fees, I lose some deals.. what are we supposed to do??
Good thing I dont have to support myself on this!

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 10/16/07 7:10pm
Msg #216811

Re: "...women are always devaluing their services and putting

Well, he was quoting Suze Orman, but he did say himself that it was probably a woman!

I would never denigrate myself. I know my worth.

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 10/16/07 7:50pm
Msg #216816

Re: "...women are always devaluing their services and putting

No retraction. Any signing agent doing an edoc reverse mortgage for $100 is devaluing their true worth, whether male or female. I simply quoted Suzie Orman's opinion of how women, unlike men in business, tend to shortsell their true worth.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 10/16/07 8:21pm
Msg #216820

Re: "...women are always devaluing their services and putting

I like Suze and I don't care what anyone thinks. Male or female, blue or green, it is wrong to accept signings like that for a low fee but I thought it was not necessary for your post. That's my opinion and they are like butts, everyone has one.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 10/16/07 8:25pm
Msg #216821

Re: "...women are always devaluing their services and putting

I put myself on sale every day now since the lowballers moved to town. Use to get $175 for email docs no prob and now I have to fight for the $125 job. Am I putting myself down, nope,
I am surviving in a dirty pond with alot of fish.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 10/16/07 8:50pm
Msg #216826

Re: "...women are always devaluing their services and putting

You also stated " Probably a woman"

Could just as likely been a male!

I agree that any good signing agent, no matter what gender, that would do any e-doc signing for $100 is devaluing their true worth.

Of course, there are signing agents who are not worth the fee!

Reply by LORNA DENT on 10/16/07 8:58pm
Msg #216829

Re: "...women are always devaluing their services and puttin

Are you notaries really busy in WA? I know that here in Az a lot of notaries are having to go back to some of their old jobs or finding work elsewhere because it has gotten pretty slow here. I don't think that taking a lower paying job is a bad thing, I know notaries that are lucky right now to get one call a week. I started raising my prices awhile back and you know what happened? I lost a lot of work. So, as a business person and someone who has worked in many types of business I use what I have learned in the past....my brain. I stay busy because I am willing to do both the low signings and the high ones. If I can get a customer to pay my asking fee, wonderful but if they wont and if the borrower is not too far I will take the job at their fee. I have some customers that pay me very well, but they are not busy enough to keep me in business, so I also have customers that pay me a bit lower and most of them are the ones keeping me busy, but I do limit how many miles I will travel for them....you know what....I stay busier them a lot of others in my state because I am willing to bend and work with clients so that I can stay in business during this "drought" as my friend calls it. This is not demeaning to my profession this is staying in business and being a smart business person.

Reply by KJ/IA on 10/16/07 7:07pm
Msg #216809

I did a Reverse Mortgage last month.... I did not accept $100 & I am a female.

Reply by CJ/Alaska on 10/16/07 7:20pm
Msg #216813

I pay my Notary fees.. and my Errors n Omissions Insurance.. Had my background check..
Pay my membership fees to the NNA.. but lenders & title companies call agencies.. Agencies dont do the work; they make phone calls, getting loans assigned.. but they have all this Overhead... so they try to take more of the fee than us Notaries get.. when we are the ones doing all the work.. the Notaries arent going bankrupt.. its all the agencies who are competing against each other.. But I hold to my prices and I tell them what they offer is just RIDICULOUS and they will actually Ask me "Can't you lower your fee for us??" WHY ON EARTH would I do that?? They wanna make money and so do I.. so on a busy month, I do between 8 and 10 deals a month.. Thats IT.. I just wont work that hard for so little money.. BUT I KNOW, SOMEONE ELSE AFTER ME PROBABLY WILL....

I wish more lenders & title companies would just call us Notaries directly.. then we would get paid what we are worth..

Reply by Philip Johnson on 10/16/07 7:57pm
Msg #216817

So I can only assume that when all of the above

went to purchase their car, home or even insurance that you jumped on the first offer with no negotiation and never looked back. It's still for the time being America and if someone can complete the job and still make a profit @ $100.00 who am I or who are we to degrade their efforts by name calling?
Ronnie I don't know what you quoted, but you gave it your best shot and they said they would keep that in mind. So they didn't call you back, that's the way business goes and tomorrow you'll get another offer and you'll need to figure out if it is good for you.

I really don't see the need to name call.

Reply by LORNA DENT on 10/16/07 8:36pm
Msg #216823

Re: shame on you for accepting a $100 edoc reverse in Puyall

I have to disagree with you about women d evaluating themselves and as to accepting a signing for 100. As slow as the business is right now....I know that if i didn't accept some of the low ball signings i wouldn't be making any money. sometimes its those that hold out and take the business they can get that will be the ones that will stay in business. One of my customers that is keeping me the most busy right now pays the average 50 & 75 fees and right now they are making me an average of 1500/month over the better paying customers who by the way seem to be few and far between. A good business person should know that to make money you can't always be particular about what type of customer you will work with, if you take the low paying ones and the high paying ones your better off then if you just limit yourselves to the high paying ones.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 10/16/07 9:19pm
Msg #216833

Re: shame on you for accepting a $100 edoc reverse in Puyall

Lorna, I know times are tight for alot of us but I wouldn't do a $50 signing, not even for my next door neighbor, not unless it were 1 or 2 pages. When you get your fees down that low and the market picks back up, you will never get them to pay you more than that. Sorry. Not me. That is bad business no matter what gender you are. Now, if you are in CA, you might not have a choice, XYZ has done that to them and they are going to have to deal with it.
I like to keep myself, on average, $50+ per hour. I'm worth it.

Reply by Rachel/ORWA on 10/16/07 9:25pm
Msg #216835

You're reading my business plan, Loretta!

By the time you adjust for medical insurance, SE tax, retirement plans, vacation, sick time and your general overhead expenses, you've probably cut that $50 in half. Considering the responsibility and the "on-call" aspect of the business, I wouldn't do it for less.

Reply by Rachel/ORWA on 10/16/07 9:27pm
Msg #216837

Also, some people think they're making $50/hr if they

spend and hour at the signing and get paid $50 for the assignment. When I set my fee, I calculate my entire time investment. (I'm sure you do, as well, Loretta.)

Reply by Charles_Ca on 10/16/07 9:30pm
Msg #216838

I would be willing to be that these hobbyists don't pay

any of those Rachel. They just want to make a few extra bucks and have no concept of an actual business. Some even think that business plans are ridiculous. It would be interesting to see if any ever get audited as a result of an audit of an SS. I can just hear the angst!

Reply by Charles_Ca on 10/16/07 9:32pm
Msg #216839

Dang,, that is supposed to be I would BE willing to be that

One of these days I swear I am going to find a computer that can type 'cause I sure can't!

Reply by Charles_Ca on 10/16/07 9:33pm
Msg #216840

Lets try it 1 more time "I would be willing to BET" n/m

Reply by Rachel/ORWA on 10/16/07 9:36pm
Msg #216842

You're making me laugh; paybacks for the over the river

and through the woods thing!

Reply by Charles_Ca on 10/16/07 10:49pm
Msg #216860

Touche, I deserved that :) n/m

Reply by Philip Johnson on 10/16/07 9:41pm
Msg #216845

So using the $100.00 example Loretta that started this.

If this person did live next door and you could finish in an hour, would you do it? That would certainly meet you $50.00 an hour prerequisite.

Reply by Loretta Reed on 10/16/07 10:33pm
Msg #216854

Re: So using the $100.00 example Loretta that started this.

Well Phillip, I know that they would have coffee and wanna talk about the neighbors so it would eat right into the 2nd hour, right?

Have a great night! I took a break to take my online class and gollie gee, the thread got bigger. Good topic, huh

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 10/16/07 9:19pm
Msg #216834

Re: shame on you for accepting a $100 edoc reverse in Puyall

" if you take the low paying ones and the high paying ones your better off then if you just limit yourselves to the high paying ones"

Not necessarily! When you figure in your cost of printing (laser, paper, time - and time waiting for the docs), your gas, time and other costs involved in the business, when you take the low paying jobs you are making very little on them, if anything.

I always limited myself to those that met my fee.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 10/16/07 9:26pm
Msg #216836

Same here Sylvia and Loretta

If you take the lower fees you are just making yourself the commodity that the others know that they are. In a commodity market it is extremely difficult to make a living, just ask a corn farmer. For every low paying assignment you take you are driving another nail in the coffin of the business. In a commodity market only the biggest will survive and everyone else will starve until they go out of business. Its just Econ 101!

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 10/16/07 9:42pm
Msg #216846

Re: Same here Sylvia and Loretta

As a signing service, if I called a notary for a signing and they told me their fee and it was low, I would take that to mean they were inexperienced and I would not hire them.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 10/16/07 9:47pm
Msg #216848

I believe your corn analogy is not the best to use.

Corn is doing rather well, due to the current ethanol fixation and most corn farmers are having a record year.

Reply by Rachel/ORWA on 10/16/07 9:52pm
Msg #216849

Now YOU are making me laugh, Philip...

No matter the subject, you can always find a credible argument for the opposing view.

This is an interesting thread, to say the least. Hope all is well over there in Battle Ground!

Reply by Philip Johnson on 10/16/07 9:56pm
Msg #216850

All is well here in BG.

I am not too proud to take a next door signing for $100, but I guess I am just some ol' hobbyist bringing down the profession. At least I'll have a bit of money to keep my DSL

Reply by Rachel/ORWA on 10/16/07 10:08pm
Msg #216851

Re: All is well here in BG.

I only wish I could get a signing next door! All mine seem to be in the boonies (wait... I AM in the boonies!)

Seriously, $100 next door would meet my criteria, under most circumstances, and I know you're not a "hobbyist."

Reply by Charles_Ca on 10/16/07 10:53pm
Msg #216862

Having a military pension doesn't hurt either! n/m

Reply by Philip Johnson on 10/17/07 9:56am
Msg #216903

Surely years of "travelers gut" is worth something. :) n/m

Reply by Charles_Ca on 10/17/07 10:44am
Msg #216912

Absolutely no slight intended Philip, I have the utmost

respect for those who made the military a carreer. It does however put one in a slightly different position financially. Most "lifers" I've known can't make it on the pension alone. That being said however the situation is not the same as someone who goes into a buiness like the Notary Signing Agent business and intends on having that as their single soure of support. I've stopped accepting NSA work becasue the other two notaries in my area need it a lot more than I do and I do quite well without it. I'm just a notary groupie now

Reply by Charles_Ca on 10/16/07 10:52pm
Msg #216861

My point was that even though corn is doing well not

every farmer is. I am sure that they are all getting the same price and yet their costs are different. Same as with the hobbiest notary. Of course the corn farmer has one thing that the notary doesn't, economy of scale!

Reply by Barb/MO on 10/17/07 2:44pm
Msg #216961

"another nail in the coffin of the business" True dat n/m

Reply by LORNA DENT on 10/17/07 5:43pm
Msg #217020

Re: shame on you for accepting a $100 edoc reverse in Puyall

Ok, First...50 dollar signings are generally overnite packages, not email. Second....the time i spend on these signings is very little. The package comes to me or the borrower, my expense is about 20-30 min of my time at the table and gas, i usually drop them at the ups store of fedex on my way home if its not to late or drop them the next day on my way to another signing or on errends. I always check the docs before leaving the borrower and then again before dropping them off. Most of those dont require any fax backs or any other time spent on them, so very little of my time is spent on them and I dont go more then 25 miles one way.

By the way....I do pay quarterly taxes just like any other business and I do figure in my overhead...this is not a hobby for me, this is our second income which if i did not do I would have to be working a 40+ hour job like i used to do before this.

I have tried to get customers to pay more for the past 1.5 years of doing this busness....I dont know about others but here in AZ it is very very slow and its like pulling teeth to get customers to pay more....I need the money so I take both the good and the bad...although I do have my limits on the low balls....I dont go lower then 50.

Reply by Rachel/ORWA on 10/16/07 9:35pm
Msg #216841

I definitely take exception to the remark that it probably

was a woman. It seems to me that most the posters who defend $40+ assignments are men. (Maybe that's because women don't tend to defend themselves, either!)

I understand your frustration, however; NSAs who accept low fees cause a ripple effect that we all feel. Hopefully they'll eventually figure out they'd be better off working for minimum wage as long as they get benefits. In the meantime, I'm happy to get 1 signing to their 3 and make the same amount of money.

Hang in there; I wish you all the best.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 10/16/07 11:08pm
Msg #216864

Just playing the devil's advocate here, but

maybe it's time for a reality check. The market is tight, there are fewer assignments available, and basic economics tells us that in this type of market the work is going to go to the lowest bidder. You can stamp your feet, shake your fist at the sky, and shovel all sorts of sh*t against the tide, but none of that is going to change the reality of where the market is right now. Does that mean you should take any low-ball offer that comes along? Absolutely not - but you can certainly figure out which jobs will still allow you to make a profit and adjust your pricing if necessary. You should also be looking to diversify and set up other income streams so that you don't have to rely on a single stream that is drying up.

Standing by your fees in a shrinking market takes guts and a sincere confidence in your own abilities. Unfortunately, there are a lot of folks out there who could care less about that stuff and are ready and willing to eat your lunch while you're trying to maintain the status quo. And there are clients looking to cut costs who will hire these bottom feeders. Whether or not they can make money doing that is irrelevant - the point is that they're undercutting you and keeping money out of your pocket. How do you respond to that?

My guess is that scolding them for accepting less money than you would is not really going to make much of an impression on them....

Reply by CaliNotary on 10/17/07 1:28am
Msg #216870

Re: Just playing the devil's advocate here, but

"Does that mean you should take any low-ball offer that comes along? Absolutely not - but you can certainly figure out which jobs will still allow you to make a profit and adjust your pricing if necessary."

This is also a good time for people to examine their signing methods and see where they can cut the fat and streamline the process. There are a lot of people who waste a heck of a lot of time quadruple checking everything to avoid every "what if" they can think of. Cut that 3 hour signing down to 2 hours and you can accept 1/3 less on your fees with no net loss.

Reply by TRG_wy on 10/17/07 8:06am
Msg #216882

Accepting a fee of $100 for an edoc RM is only making money for the SS. These are larger packages, take much more time with borrowers and are worth much more in fees. If you work for free on a time basis then you can accept it. I sure wouldn't, not even if it were next door.

It should make no difference in setting fees because times might be slow right now. I am an experienced professional and that is what I am being paid for. Nobody else in the industry is expected to reduce their fee (appraiser as an example). If the SS wants to go to a bottom feeder low baller with little to none in experience then have at it; I don't mind going out to do a re-sign because of errors. If I loose a few closings to a lowballer then so be it.

For the professional in this business there are a lot of overhead costs. You simply cannot stay in business if you do not make enough to cover those costs and make a slight profit. Problem is that most newbies do not calculate into their fee the entire cost of doing business. A $50 closing might sound like a lot to some but you simply are not making that much in reality. Between pre-closing, closing, and post closing you spend on average at least two hours time.

Looking back just a few years - in 2000 $50-$60 for overnight was the norm, and appraisals were $150. Today, appraisals are running $450+ here and the SS is trying to keep our fee at $50 - what a huge joke!

Reply by Alice Jones on 10/17/07 11:00am
Msg #216917

It is time we stick together on pricing. This is crazy! Next thing we will hear is the signing fee for email docs will drop to $40. I stick to my fee no matter what. They will get what they pay for.

Reply by LORNA DENT on 10/17/07 6:06pm
Msg #217022

Re: shame on you for accepting a $100 edoc reverse in Puyall

I have been in this business for 2.5 years. I am a good at what I do. I am not a newbie to the business and up until 6 months ago was doing 2-3 signings on average per day....I could have done more but this was my limit so that i could be home more with my family. During the last year and a half I have tried to get higher pay for signings but as I said, if i just stuck to the companies that paid me the price I want I would get so few signings here in AZ that it would be better for me to go back to my 40+ hour office manager job. By only using the customers of mine that pay my price I would only be doing 3-4 signings per month during this drought period....that is not enough to cover expenses and not enough to keep the business going. By doing business with both the high paying companies and the lower paying companies I do pretty good and even subtracting the expenses I make as much as I did in my old job, the difference....I can be home more, I work a lot less hours and I actually enjoy my work. I am also looking into other venues of work that I can do from home but so far have not gotten very good results. I don't feel that I am jepordizing the notary business by having both high paying and low paying customers. I am an honest hard working person that has worked in many types of business during my life, I have taken business classes, I understand how some of you may feel that what I choose to do is hurting the industry but I disagree and I also have to put my family and our needs ahead of the industry....I also find that it is my reputation & integrity with my work gets me a lot further then bickering over prices during a time when cost are hard for everyone...including those that hire us. A lot of companies are going out of business, not paying notaries etc....I will take my chances doing business my way as it seems to work well for me.

Reply by LORNA DENT on 10/17/07 6:16pm
Msg #217028

Re: shame on you for accepting a $100 edoc reverse in Puyall

I have to apologize, I don't mean to sound mean or angry in my post...I am actually a pretty happy and easy going person, getting angry is something that is a rare thing for me....I re-read some of my post and they sound angry and mean....please forgive.

I think I just get frustrated because it seems that because I choose to do what I can to stay in business and am one of those that will take work from lower paying customers along with the high paying customers, that I and others like me are being condemned....I am only trying to do what I can to keep from having to back to a 40+ hour job that I know I will hate.

Please forgive my outburst and I hope I did not offend anyone. I think that the job we do as notaries is important and I also agree that we should get paid better, unfortunately the companies that hire us don't agree, I cannot afford to wait until they decide to change, so I try to do that as i keep working. The world is full of greedy people who don't pay people what their worth, maybe I just have a different way of dealing with that problem.

Once again, I apologize for the outburst and hope that I have not offended anyone.