Posted by dbw on 12/23/09 8:58pm
Msg #315619

Changing Dates

I had a Bank of America signing where the docs were dated 12/18 and the signing took place 12/19. I changed the date on the first page of the note, first page of the deed, and the RTC to reflect the date the documents were being signed, 12/19. All changes were properly initialed by the borrower. B of A is saying changing the note and deed dates was unacceptable and the documents have to be completely redrawn. What's the correct procedure when the documents are dated before the signing actually takes place?

Reply by jba/fl on 12/23/09 9:13pm
Msg #315623

Once you have determined that the docs are not date sensitive, leave them alone. Of course, if there is dating to be done by either buyers or you, it is always "today's date".

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/23/09 9:37pm
Msg #315624

Your certificates are always dated the date the people are in front of you - the document date should not be changed without prior approval of the lender/title company.

When you saw the discrepancy in the dates, especially on the RTC, a call to title was in order to (a) make sure it was okay (b) to confirm that they understand you'd be dating your certs for the current date and (c) dates on RTC need to be changed (they'd probably have borrowers change the dates on the RTC and intial).

BofA is right - changing the date of the Note and Mortgage was incorrect - as long as your certificates are dated the date you notarize, then there's no problem and nothing else should have been changed by you or borrowers without prior authorization.

Reply by Maureen_nh on 12/23/09 10:23pm
Msg #315628

Don't get crushed by this , take it as a learning experiance and learn that the docs are theirs and your notary block is yours. don't change theirs without specific permission, in writing.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 12/23/09 11:37pm
Msg #315633

"What's the correct procedure when the documents are dated before the signing actually takes place?"


Don't change anything in the document without explicit direction first. That's the procedure.

For notarized documents, the only date that matters (as far as you are concerned) is the one on your notarial certificate. For some situations, the notarization date may or may not even coincide with the date the documents were signed... what matters is that you date it the day you perform the notarial act. Sometimes these (acknowledgments) happen at the same time, sometime they don't.

Changing the date of the RTC makes sense, since that's date sensitive. That's not a doc I think we need permission to change, since it's common sense. But anything else? Make sure you have permission first... or simply leave it alone.

I've done plenty of signings where the dates on the docs were off... and I've just left them alone. As long as I have the signers date them properly and I date my certs properly... it's fine. Nobody has ever come back and complained.

Reply by dbw on 12/24/09 8:08am
Msg #315651

Thanks for all the input. Of course the signing was on a Saturday morning and nobody could be reached. Also, this was one where I faxed a ton of documents on Saturday and got approval to ship the documents on Monday. I just heard about this error at 8:30 pm Wednesday night! What's the point of faxing all that stuff if nobody looks at it?

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 12/24/09 8:43am
Msg #315654

If the date on the note is different than the date on the

mtg/td, you should call it to TC's attention, as this may well not let the
TC provide a clean lender's title insurance policy and result in a resign

Reply by Todd/OH on 12/24/09 2:26pm
Msg #315697

I agree with Bob

The mortgage was produced after a title search was done knowing title was clear. The date on the note and mortgage/DOT must agree. If the date on the mtg is changed, you could have a serious title problem.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 12/24/09 4:03pm
Msg #315702

thanx, Todd, but issue is slightly different. Priority of

a lien is generally determined by date of recording, not date of the instrument.
If you look at a Uniform Note, there is usually a paragraph entitled
"Uniform Secured Note" It refers to protections to the note holder under a mortgage (DOT)
"DATED THE SAME DATE AS THIS NOTE" The uniform mortgage has a paragraph
referring to a note whch is secured by the mortgage which date is either inserted
in the form or with language referring to the Note of the same date as the mortgage.
If one of the dates is changed, and not the other, then lender and TC have a BIG problem.

Reply by ChristineHI on 12/24/09 1:06pm
Msg #315691

It is actually very common to sign after the date on the docs.
It can be a problem, though, if the docs are dated AFTER your signing date. In other words, you signed 18th, but the docs are dated the 19th. Normally you cannot sign BEFORE the date on the docs. If you ever get docs dated for a date later than your signing date, contact the lender immediately.
The only date you normally change is the right to cancel. You definately never want to make any cross outs, except on the notary page, on the deed of trust/mortgage. The recorder doesn't like that. :-)
As a loan processor, my experience is that the date on the docs is usually the date they spit them out of their printer. Many lenders just date the docs that day and not the day of the signing. That is why it is not uncommon to have dates earlier than your signing date.
Just always remember to not make any cross outs or corrections to docs, except the right to cancel, unless you ask the lender first. In many cases it will cause a problem if you do, so better safe than sorry. :-)

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 12/25/09 1:29pm
Msg #315731

Pkg dates - TMI =)

Whether or not a loan can be signed before or after the date of the pkg is (with a couple of doc exceptions) entirely at the Lender’s discretion – there is no law against either, and both are commonly done. It is ALWAYS imperative though and part of your responsibility to confirm that pre-dated/post-dated docs are not just an error, but are how the Lender desires them to be. Beyond that, the only two dates that remain always part of our responsibility are the RTC dates, and the date of our notarial certs.

Loan docs have many dates – most are of NO concern to us, nor do they pose any issue to the borrower relative to the date he executes:

“Print Date” – meaningless, just the date docs were printed, making different versions easier to track.
“Transaction Date” – this is the date on the Note & Mtg (and throughout the pkg) that usually coincides with the date of the signing, but doesn’t HAVE to.
“Settlement Date” – this is also the date that usually coincides with the date of the signing. On the Hud, it may or may not be the same, depending on the situation. Often on purchases that close in escrow, this date will be in the future.
“Disbursement Date” – on the Hud, this is the date all funds will disburse – this date should ALWAYS BE AFTER the RTC expires.
“First Payment Date” – on the Note, TIL, escrow disclosure, payment coupons & First Payment Letter, this is either 30 days from Disbursement or the first of the month after the first full month from date of Disbursement.
“First Change Date” – only on ARMS, on the Note & in the TIL – and the rest of the change dates..
“Maturity Date” or ‘end date’ on the Note & Mtg, off of which other calculations are driven (TIL, Am Schedule)
RTC – beginning date CAN NOT be in the past, but CAN be in the future at the lender’s discretion.
RTC – expiration date MUST be a minimum of 3 business days in the future, and can be MORE than that but must be before the Disbursement date.
Notarial Cert date MUST be the date of execution – the day the signer actually signs before the notary.

There are just a few situations & consequences of dates that need to be addressed:

You can’t mortgage property you don’t own – so any Deeds MUST be dated on or before the Transaction Date (which is the date on the Note & Mtg/Dot). Since Deeds are notarized, well there is that issue. Deeds that aren’t done correctly are a big contributor to the requests for back-dating (the corrections) and this is why! This would also apply to anything attached to the transaction – POA’s, Sub Agreements, etc.

On the HUD, the “odd days interest adjustment” evens the score between the lender & borrower as to the DAY the interest begins, and that coincides with the Date of Disbursement (which is usually on the Hud, and isn’t on the loan docs). Whether the date of execution is before or after the date of the transaction (on the Note, Mtg, et al) is regardless to either the borrower or the lender – it won’t make the borrower pay more interest, won’t cost the lender in interest lost, won’t have any consequence providing the RTC is correct, the Deeding is valid, any attaching docs (as above) are valid, and assuming it’s within a reasonable time-frame (a few days here/there, so that it doesn’t conflict with the First Payment Date).

Split-Signings where one party signs prior to the other who is going to sign the SAME docs – HERE is where you will often see future-dated docs, which will be dated for the 2nd signer. The Lender determines how he wants the RTC done (dated in the future or not), and the only requirement is that each person receives a minimum of 3 business days. It can be done the other way around, dated for the 1st signer – with the 2nd signer’s RTC corrected and the Disbursement date & interest adjustment coinciding, but it’s not as ‘neat’ and usually isn’t done this way.

So …whatever the “Transaction Date” is (the primary date on the whole pkg), it’s all up to the Lender’s discretion – as we see, with some Lender’s pkgs being “date-sensitive” and others allowing a window of X amount of days, etc. As Bob said, the mtg becomes public record on the date it is recorded, and the Note becomes binding the day it is signed but isn’t “secured” until the mtg is on public record – but the day the interest starts compounding is the date of Disbursement (assuming it is PRIOR to first payment date).

A mortgage could have an execution dated after the Note – the situation where this happens is if the mtg is executed, but lost prior to recording. The Note remains valid, but unsecured. The new mtg would have the same date of transaction (in the body), but be signed/dated & notarized the actual date of execution, and become public record (and secure the Note) on the date of recording.

Whew – there are more dates – on Sale/Purchases there are other date issues, but as they apply to us, the primary concern is to remember: you can’t mortgage property you don’t own. Be VERY cautious when executing W. Deeds so that they are correct – things can really be a mess if this ever has to be fixed.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 12/25/09 4:59pm
Msg #315736

Just to clarify one point, the date that the grant deed

bears should be on or before the date of the note and mortgage.
I may be actually executed and notarized on a subsequent date.
I have seem a number of transaction, mainly commercial, where the lender
wants to see a title commitment with their mortgage of record prior to
closing. The mtg will be executed, notarized and recorded and title brough down.
A commitment will be issued showing the new mortgage as of record but subject
to prior liens being released and an exception showing that the mortgagor has
no title of record in the PIQ, Those exceptions will be waived upon payment of
the prior liens and execution and recording or the grant deed dated, as of, on
or before the date that the mortgage bears, following the closing.

Reply by PAW on 12/25/09 6:32pm
Msg #315739

Is this something unique to Cook County?

>>> I may be actually executed and notarized on a subsequent date. <<<

Notaries are executed and notarized? <G>

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 12/25/09 7:19pm
Msg #315740

Generally, only Rebublican voters are executed in Cook

County, but anyone may be notarized.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 12/26/09 3:26am
Msg #315744

Fascinating, thanks Bob!

Interesting as all get out, makes perfect sense - I never heard of such a thing and sure happy to learn about it! Have you seen this done on residential transactions? Is it something the 'Mae Families' accept? Don't see why they wouldn't, but just never saw/heard of it before.

Is the transaction date just set out into the future to accomodate the process & so as not to conflict with the first pymt/maturity/blah blah blah?

It sure would've come in handy back in the day when our Wayne County was so far behind in recordings (over 6 mos) - but the solution would've been as impossible as the problem, with the time delay. Still boggles my mind that anyone transacted loans here in those days - saw more than one where our mtg didn't quite make it into the record as the 'winner' of that race. Sure made things ripe for risk.