Posted by Louis/AZ on 12/28/09 3:23pm
Msg #315874

Fidelity National Title - Weird situation and comments pls?

I searched and couldn't find much information about this company except that it was linked to ServiceLink. I also checked signing central and there are no reviews available. In case anyone's wondering, I'm not talking about Fidelity Legal Services. So far I'm getting the impression that this is not the greatest company. Here's my situation:

I had a couple of borrowers call me directly last week needing some loan docs notarized. They had 5 docs with 2 sigs on each, so I figured hey - 20 bucks is 20 bucks. ($2 per sig in AZ x 5 docs x 2 sigs and I let them come to me). This was by far the most annoying general notary request I've done in a while. Two of the docs were lengthy affidavits that HAD to be filled out before notarization (per AZ law) which took up a lot of time. Fidelity sent "Instructions to Notary" like many companies do, so I asked the borrowers if they originally had an appointment with a signing agent. They said no: Fidelity just overnighted the docs to them along with instructions for the Notary. They also sent along a statement for me to sign basically saying that I am a licensed notary and that I had ID'd the borrowers (although it did not ask me to specify what type of ID). I don't remember the exact wording, but I'm pretty sure it asked me to certify that the IDs were authentic. While I certainly took steps to examine their out-of-state IDs, I'm not about to "certify the authenticity" of their IDs. I told the BO's I wasn't going to sign it. Today I get a call from a lady at Fidelity telling me I failed to complete the certification. I told her I wasn't comfortable signing it and reminded her that Fidelity did not hire me. She said it was required by the government. I remember at the bottom of the page it said "Fidelity Internal Document" and definitely didn't look like any government form I had ever seen in a loan package. I told her I wasn't going to sign it and she said she'd talk to her manager and get back with me and then she hung up. Excuse me? These guys didn't even hire me.

It just didn't feel right to me. My position is that, since these BO's came to me directly and Fidelity didn't hire me, I don't have to sign anything I don't want to other than the notarized docs themselves. It seemed to me like they might be trying to pawn off liability on me, and I just wasn't going to do it. They didn't hire me as a SA, and from what little information I can gather about them, they don't seem to be a high paying company.

Sorry for the dissertation, but my question is: Has anyone else run into a similar situation? What did you do? In your opinion(s), do you think I should have just signed the certification, or would you have done the same thing I did? Thanks.

Reply by Lee/AR on 12/28/09 3:58pm
Msg #315878

I'd have done as you did. If IDs 'look fishy', I'm not notarizing. Fact that I did notarize means they looked OK to me. Am I going to 'certify' that the IDs were authentic? Nah... I watch too many spy movies for that. Then, there is the issue of 'liability'... My state does not ask me to 'certify' authenticity of IDs. Nor do I really care who hired me, not certifying, period.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 12/28/09 4:02pm
Msg #315879

I get these all the time (similar, anyway)

A different TC.
Yep, I sign them.
Legally I cannot be liable for false ID's, etc.
I just examine them like any other ID, and if they are good enough for me, I feel as if I hve done what I can within my own realm to "authenticate" them.
I figger that's what they really want, I don't think they want me to go to the DMV for a real authentication.

Reply by Pat/IL on 12/28/09 4:12pm
Msg #315880

Louis, To me, the wording on the 'Certificate of Authenticy' document would make the difference. If I were asked to absolutely certify the authenticity, I would probably decline as you did. If there were wording such as "to the best of my ability to determine', or some other such CYA language, I would sign and be done with it.

I think you are correct in that you were hired by the borrowers, and therefore don't really have to answer to Fidelity National's instructions. You were hired to notarize only, according to your state's laws. As long as you did so, you've covered your bases IMO.

FYI, Fidelity National Title is the largest title underwriter in the United States. They purchased Service Link a year or two ago. I think it is completely irresponsible of Fidelity to ask the borrowers to conduct their own signings, and they deserve any resulting trouble.

Reply by PAW on 12/28/09 7:47pm
Msg #315914

>>> FYI, Fidelity National Title is the largest title underwriter in the United States. <<<

Sorry, Pat, I beg to differ. LandAmerica Financial Group, Inc., holding company for Lawyers Title Insurance Corporation and Commonwealth Land Title Insurance Company, represents the largest family of title insurance underwriters in the country. (Source: Title Info Now: Who We Are)

I believe that First American Title is second, Fidelity National is third with Stewart Title Guaranty Company being the fourth largest title insurance underwriter in the United States.

But, that's just being picky and off topic. I agree that I too would have declined to sign the "notary" document, no matter what it said. As pointed out, the notary was hired by the signer. All obligations are to the signer and only the signer. Now if the signer asked to have the form completed, then that would be different and I may have obliged had the wording been different.

As for certifying authenticity, imo, that's not within a notary's purview. A notary's responsibility is to be be reasonably assured and satisfied using "satisfactory evidence."

"Satisfactory evidence" means the absence of any information, evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the person making the acknowledgment is not the person he or she claims to be, based on acceptable forms of identification.

Reply by OConnor Title Guaranty, Inc. - Closing Department on 12/29/09 1:20am
Msg #315936

Paul, the most recent information I could find in the five minuted I spent looking, supports my initial statement that Fidelity is the largest underwriter.

http://www.firstlinedata.com/newsarticle.asp?ArtID=104445

I did not check, however, before I made the claim. I had long been under the impression that Fidelity was the largest - ever since they purchased Chicago Title. It seems LandAmerica pulled ahead. However, since the bankruptcy, looks like Fidelity took the lead again.

Reply by James Powell on 12/29/09 7:01am
Msg #315940

Sorry, Paul, but Fidelity acquired most of the underwriting divisions that used to belong to LandAmerica. As a result, they are the largest underwriter in the nation. LandAmerica no longer exists as far as title underwriting is concerned.

Reply by PAW on 12/29/09 7:34am
Msg #315943

Sorry, my information was dated.

I completely forgot about the redistribution of LandAm assets and holdings. My sincerest apologies.

Reply by Michelle/AL on 12/28/09 4:16pm
Msg #315881

Louis, I'm glad you posted this thread.

Since I routinely notarize for the general public it helps to know what to expect if I'm asked to notarize loan docs from Fidelity National Title. I also get frustrated when I'm under the impression that I'm only needed to notarize signatures, and come to find out the hiring party really needs is a signing agent. I'm glad they didn't ask you drop the signed loan documents for them as well.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/28/09 4:22pm
Msg #315883

I appreciate it when borrowers call me to notarize loan

docs and the title company has included a note to me, the notary, as to what they need done, as long as it's within reason. Although I would not certify the authenticity of anything, to me it's good to know what the title company wants - they're just making sure they have a correctly executed package - and since we're the only ones who CAN inspect the ID and confirm it, I have no problem with this request.

I will say that if docs go to borrower and I quote a fee for notarizing 5 documents, that's all they get....unless borrowers want to pay me to slip on my signing agent hat - and write a check for that service.

Reply by Lee/AR on 12/28/09 4:37pm
Msg #315887

Re: I appreciate it when borrowers call me to notarize loan

Seems to me that Title could use what I see frequently.... "before me.... came (signers) who presented ____________ (whatever the ID used was--DL or US Passport--no numbers included in this, of course) as identification". This would tell them you didn't use their Blockbuster card but used a commonly accepted form of ID and you wouldn't have to 'certify' anything. This may be a state-specific form of Acknowledgement, but I see it often.

Reply by ikando on 12/30/09 11:15am
Msg #316098

Re: I appreciate it when borrowers call me to notarize loan

Whenever I receive a call from an individual who asks what I charge, my response is: "Depends on what I'm notarizing and where I'm going."

That way I have an idea whether it is a trust, vehicle title, loan docs or settlement paperwork. Through experience I have a general idea how many notarizations will be required and about how long the process will take, so I can quote appropriately.

Reply by Louis/AZ on 12/28/09 4:58pm
Msg #315889

A few more things / thanks Linda

Thanks, Linda. It didn't even occur to me that I could tell the BOs that I would be happy to perform Signing Agent services for XX dollars if they came to me. I'll remember that for next time.

So I was right about Fidelity essentially being ServiceLink which I know from these boards is very low-paying company. That means it doesn't matter if I tick them off with my refusal.

I wish I had kept a copy of the form so I could post exactly what it said. I just remember that there was language I wasn't comfortable with. Maybe the reason they stuck the BOs with this is because ServiceLink couldn't find anyone to do the signing here? Hehehe...that would be nice. I know if someone had called me for these BOs and said they were ServiceLink I would have told them to try the next person down on the list.

I was a bit flustered when this first happened, but I feel confident I did the right thing. This company didn't hire me and I do not have to answer to them or sign any of their forms. With the lengthy (2 page) notary instructions they included, it's obvious they were trying to get signing services for the price of a regular notary. ----Correction: for FREE since the borrowers paid me directly. If they paid me $125 I wouldn't have such a problem absorbing a little more potential liability, but for $2 per sig I'm not doing anything beyond basic notarizations.

Reply by Notarysigner on 12/28/09 6:22pm
Msg #315907

Re: A few more things / thanks Linda

Fidelity/partners with a lot of Title companies. Fidelity therefore (IMO) owns Servicelink.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/29/09 12:49am
Msg #315935

Re: A few more things / thanks Linda

The one that gets under my skin (and I don't remember which tc it is) asks you to state information about your E&O insurance - name of company, amount and all your contact information. It's like they are looking for a target. On the line asking for my address, I just give them the county where my commission is recorded. In the unlikely event something should come up that they really need my address, they can go fish for it. But unless they're hiring me directly and need to know where to send the check (which wasn't the case, or I wouldn't care), they don't need that info.

Reply by Notarysigner on 12/28/09 6:19pm
Msg #315906

In the past, I have gotten request to sign/notarize Docs and was asked if I was a Fidelity qualified Notary. When I replied no, I was told, ok but sorry. So it must be something they require above and beyond. I did look in to it and I learned that besides intensive training, you must be recommend by three Fidelity qualified Notaries and have completed a certain number of signings. The pay IS what's on the HUD-1.

Reply by Maranga Ink Resources on 12/28/09 8:58pm
Msg #315921

This situation is giving me the kreeeeps. Goose bumps all over.
Tittle company is jumping off the ss company.
Tittle company is jumping off sa fees.
Tittle company is jumping off the Signing Agent itself. Any Notary is ok.
i am sorry, what that Integrity SS was asking the credit check for?
I bet the title insurance fee is high.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/28/09 9:10pm
Msg #315925

Definitely the same thing. Instructing the borrowers to

"get docs notarized" is a far cry from "find notary signing agent who is familiar with the remote signing process, and who charges an appropriate fee for the singular service."

When the hairs on the back of my neck stand up? I listen. Good on you for listening too.

Key words: "Fidelity didn't hire me."

5 Star post.

Reply by jnew on 12/29/09 1:18pm
Msg #315981

The title company here did things the old way before 9/11 and the Patriot Act. The normal PAct form in a loan closing package is indeed a certification which is required to be signed by the notary public. Hence, the need to hire a NSA to insure that all the necessary documents are completed. In the old days, the title company did what they called a "mail-away". They sent the entire closing package to the borrowers by overnight delivery with a return overnight delivery envelope within. They had signing instructions where documents were signed without a witness. They kept the notarized documents in separate folder. They instructed the borrowers to find a local notary public to notarized those documents. Since they had no contract with the local notary, any errors or ommissions in the notary documents required corrections, affidavits, redraws etc. and became more of a problem than they were worth. It became a safer cheaper practice to contract with the notary directly and have him/her conduct the complete signing. The certifications by the notary were part of the product under the signing contract. Also Fidelity National Title is a national title insurance direct operation. Fidelity National Financial is a fortune 500 company which is the parent company of Chicago Title, Fidelity National Title, Ticor, LSI, Softpro and a lot of other related businesses. The short end is that you were well within your rights to refuse to certify identification but you really would not be sticking your neck out by doing so, since the same info would be in your notary journal and most States require a notary public to establish the authenticity of identification.

Reply by PAW on 12/29/09 2:15pm
Msg #315984

I think you missed the point, jnew. The form is asking the NSA to "certify authenticity" which cannot be done. The old identification forms and the Patriot Act forms do not ask the "signing agent" to certify that the documents presented for identification are authentic. Only that the identification used be itemized and that the signing agent has "reasonably" confirmed the identity of the signer as that same person who is named in the documents. So, imo, there is a big difference in what was asked of the NSA and what is done now and has been done in the past as to identifying the signer.

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/29/09 2:25pm
Msg #315986

James New - you're going to be a great asset to this

forum. I loved your historical description of mail-aways. Very good rundown on the evolution of the signing agent.

Being from the same kind of background you are, and understanding that most fraud requires a bad notary participant I do not expect the worst out of title companies. But, it all depends on the situation as to whether or not I would give them what they want on that form. I would have to look at it.

However, Texas clearly states that the onus of authentication of the information provided by a signer is them. In other words, I never have to authenticate anything by my state rules. Thank goodness!