Posted by NC_Notary on 12/10/09 8:59pm
Msg #313931

Loose Acknowledgement....Has anyone ever heard of stamping

the signed document and the separate acknowledgement a certain way so if the papers are separated, the loose acknowledgement couldn't be used for other documents fraudulently??? Someone quickly mentioned this but I never heard of this before..... TIA

Reply by John Schenk on 12/10/09 9:21pm
Msg #313935

Did a cashout Tuesday. Title said page 6 of 6 was missing and wanted me to do an acknowledgment, which I actually had no problem doing as I KNEW I had notarized the doc. I did the ACK and faxed and FedExed it to them this morning. However, I stated in the Ack they sent me that it was for X document. Didn't leave it open to be used with any other doc.

Made a copy of the executed docs for the borrowers at the end of the closing. Had them fax me a copy of page 6 of 6, which had it notarized and initialed on the Ack page by them also. Emailed and faxed that to them this afternoon, after FedExing the new Ack. It was the second to last sigs in the packet. I had no doubt I executed it, but title lost the original, somehow. Not a prob for me, but with the lost Ack I named the doc I was doing it for.

JJ

Reply by John Schenk on 12/10/09 9:29pm
Msg #313936

Noted in my Journal and an absolute recollection of stamping

it. Cashouts and HELOCS I normally go through the final executed docs TWICE to be absolutely sure I missed nothing. We did 91 pages in 16 minutes. Signing started at 6:01 and ended at 6:17. Went back through them twice, made a copy for the borrowers, and dropped it inside the FedEx hub at about 6:43...they lock the doors at 6:45.

JJ

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/11/09 12:00am
Msg #313951

And you're giving us all this minutiae why exactly? n/m

Reply by CopperheadVA on 12/11/09 6:27am
Msg #313962

Re: Noted in my Journal and an absolute recollection of stamping

Gosh, I'm scratching my head... I just don't see how you can do a 91 page loan package in 16 minutes. I know I've asked you about it before and you said that you pre-fill all the notary certs with everything except for stamp and signature (so do I) and if people just want to sign quickly, you give them what they want. I do the same but the signing still takes me much more than 16 minutes. It takes me at least 5 - 7 minutes just to log their info in my notary log, have them sign my log, and complete the ID forms in the package (often two per borrower). You sure seem to get a lot of people who just want to sign quickly without looking at what they are signing - I get very few of those. I'm jealous!

Reply by Cari on 12/11/09 10:00am
Msg #313981

Seriously that's fast! My signing last night...BO

asks how long, I say, at the most 20 minutes, about 90 pages. It took exactly an hour because he had to read every single paper, which I didn't mind, it's his loan, you know, but the funny party was that he was soo annoyed that it was taking so long!? I was giggling in the inside....=)

Reply by John Schenk on 12/11/09 6:55pm
Msg #314048

Re: Seriously that's fast! My signing last night...BO

Not every signing I do gets done that quickly. I also have the occasional borrower that wants to do some reading. Lookin like I'm gonna have one tomorrow, if it goes. Hubby is out of town and not sure about going through with the refi the wife has set up. Got the heads up from title. He's supposed to visit with the LO tomorrow after he sees the docs waiting for him at home. I'm still guessing it's not gonna be a quicky. I allowed an hour and 15 minutes for it before my next closing. I'm hoping it doesn't take that long, but this packet should run about 150 pages and with a questioning borrower, unless the LO does a good job with him tomorrow before I get there, I'm thinking this one may take all of it, but you never know. Wife is ready to rock and roll so I pass the docs to her first until we get hubby rolling, and then I may change the order I pass them due to his name probably being first and it's just quicker to pass to the first listed signer. I just play it by ear and watch them. She'll definitely be the one filling out any info as I expect she's going to do it much faster. You just gotta read'em and act accordingly.

JJ

Reply by John Schenk on 12/11/09 7:54pm
Msg #314051

Re: Noted in my Journal and an absolute recollection of stamping

I do as you stated at first, of course. As for logging their info in the notary log, I do most of that in advance too. I already know what all the docs are and I log those when I go through and fill them out ahead of time, except for my siggy and stamp, so that part is done. I know where the signing is taking place, date, time so I only have to fill in their names and address and check the form of I.D., at the end of the closing.

As for ID forms, the package I had on this particular signing had only one with both names on the same doc, but I agree that there are usually two different forms per borrower on many of the packages. Which borrower is signing quicker and will be better at filling out docs that require them to fill in information? That's the one you pass'em to. There's 4 pages to a 1099. Jerk the sig pages out at the same time and pass'em to'em. Poof...done. 4506 and 4506T you always have both of them signing the one their named first on at the same time, switch'em and get spouse sigs. POOF POOF. I flag docs that require info to be filled out. If one borrower has to leave the table, I have the remaining one fill those out while the other one is gone. While they're doing that, or any break in the signing, I complete my journal so all they have to do is give me their final siggy. As for a survey that comes with the packet, I have them fill that out while I'm rechecking the sigs, initials, any missing blocks being checked or filled in, my siggy, and stamp. They're done with it by the time I'm done going back through them. If it's a cashout or a HELOC, I run and make copies on one copier, and then come back down and make a copy of their ID's on the other and don't worry about them signing my book until the copy of the executed docs are copying.

My 2 minute schpeel, when we sit down at the table, usually works, and puts the borrowers at ease. I tell them exactly what I am going to show them in the docs as we go through them, as well as let them know that I'll be happy to point out anything else they want to see in them. Most of the time we just burn a trail to the end, but there are certainly exceptions, and always will be.

OH, and in the legend at the front of your Notary Journal, abbreviate EVERY document that you come across that you normally notarize. You don't write all that crap out in your journal...they don't leave enough room for me to identify all the docs I stamp in that space anyway so I use Initials, which are identified in the legend at the front. If you ever have to copy a page of your journal, you would also have to copy the legend so they would know what the initials stand for the docs you notarized. Once you memorize those initials, and you're pre-filling out your journal before closings as you fill in all you can before the closing, the doc is identified with an initial i.e. D=Deed/Mortgage, S/N A= Signature/Name Affidavit, UPAD= USA Patriot Act Disclosure/Borrower Identification, OA=Owners Affidavit, NTM=Notice to Mortgagor, etc., etc., etc.

That's how I identify my docs in my journal. Very fast, and user friendly.

ALWAYS let your borrowers know that you took the time to fill out EVERYTHING you could in advance to save them time so you won't be holding up their signing. Haven't found a Single borrower yet that did not appreciate that. Also makes your signing go faster, not only because you're not there writing all that junk in at the signing table, but because it gives you more time to watch them sign and watch what they are handing you back after they've signed it. You concentrate on THEM during the signing, and not on filling out basic notary info that you could have filled out before. In fact, if I get the docs too late and the TC wants me there spot on time, I come to the table and tell them I need 5 or 10 minutes to fill out all I can in advance so it will save them time during the closing, and ensure we have a perfect closing. They always have something they can do for 5-10 minutes. I WANT that stuff filled out in advance of the time they go to signing the docs. I NEED to watch them sign, and inspect their sigs as they hand them back to me.

OH...lastly, I don't stop feeding them docs to sign while I'm notarizing a page. I NEVER stop feeding them docs, period. It's a bit of juggling sometimes but my signing and stamping and writing in the type of ID I used (which I can't do until that point since I don't know what I'm gonna get til we sign) never slows the process. Doesn't matter if I have to notarize 5 docs in a row...I keep feeding them and I catch up, if need be. That's how I can do a 91 page, 16 minute signing of face time with the borrowers, other than making executed copies on a HELOC or cashout.

Obviously, it takes me more than 16 minutes altogether with all that I do before, and after, the signing, so as not to confuse anyone that I'm saying that I can complete everything in a signing in 16 minutes, that's impossible. I'm talking about the actual signing of the docs, not faxbacks or printing or what I fill in advance, or what I do after they leave the table.

The way I do it may not work for anyone else, but it works for me, and my borrowers. Have a hiccup every now and then, but not often. Lenders and the TC get perfectly executed docs, the borrowers are happy that the huge pile of paper didn't take them hours to sign, and everybody wins. JMO

JJ

Reply by jba/fl on 12/11/09 7:59pm
Msg #314052

Re: Noted in my Journal and an absolute recollection of stamping

"4506 and 4506T you always have both of them signing the one their named first on at the same time, switch'em and get spouse sigs."

Since these forms do not require spousal signatures if they have their own separate ones, you could shave another minute from your time spent at the table. I encourage you to try this and report your findings.

Seriously.

Reply by John Schenk on 12/11/09 8:44pm
Msg #314057

Re: Noted in my Journal and an absolute recollection of stamping

Sounds more like shaving about 5-10 secs, but I still have the spouse sign even if they each have their own. Never had a complaint on that yet.

JJ

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/11/09 8:36pm
Msg #314054

Re: Noted in my Journal and an absolute recollection of stamping

"ALWAYS let your borrowers know that you took the time to fill out EVERYTHING you could in advance to save them time so you won't be holding up their signing. Haven't found a Single borrower yet that did not appreciate that. Also makes your signing go faster, not only because you're not there writing all that junk in at the signing table, but because it gives you more time to watch them sign and watch what they are handing you back after they've signed it. You concentrate on THEM during the signing, and not on filling out basic notary info that you could have filled out before."

I don't need to concentrate on THEM during the signing. And I'm not quite sure why you feel like you have to stare at them as they're signing docs, nor do I understand why their signatures need inspection. I fill out all that stuff as we go through the signing, not in advance. My peripheral vision, combined with the fact that we're the only ones sitting at the table makes it pretty clear who signed what, it's nothing that needs concentration, just competence.

If you can get through a signing in 16 minutes, you're not doing a very thorough job of explaining the docs to the client. Granted, there are a few clients that don't want/need an explanation of what they're signing, and those are fine to rush through, but for the average signing they deserve more than 16 minutes of your time to get their docs signed.

I had a signing last night where the borrower was a lawyer who had moved from an attorney only state and told me she used to do loan signings all the time and didn't need anything explained. She also had all her disclosures on the table, so she knew what to expect. I just handed her the stack of docs, she started working her way through signing, barely looked at anything and the things she did look at she spent maybe 30 second max on. All I did was double check as she went along and filled in all the notary stuff. And even with her not looking at anything and me not explaining anything, it still took 15 minutes to get through the 98 page stack. So I really don't know how you can possibly give the average borrower a decent understanding of what they're signing in the same amount of time.

Reply by John Schenk on 12/11/09 9:11pm
Msg #314059

Re: Noted in my Journal and an absolute recollection of stamping

I concentrate on THEM during the signing, but that's just the way I do it. "[T]heir signatures need inspection" because they must match what's on the line underneath them. Sometimes, and on the closing we're talking about, there were 2 docs that the guy had to sign "JOHN J. DOE AKA JOHN DOE." This title company would have kicked that back had he not signed it exactly that way, but it was only on 2 docs. Sometimes the middle initial is not there, whatever it is, I want to concentrate on what they are writing. Sometimes they go down through the signing and get a little lax and start skipping putting a middle initial as that's not how they normally sign their name. If I have a backup copy on something that's not a HELOC or a cashout, I pull that page out of the packet and make them sign it over right then and there.

I'm NOT there to explain every page of a doc line by line. If you want to do that, carry on. I never stop talking at the table and I let them know what the docs are as I pass them, although we don't dwell on them unless they need further explanation. I do what it takes, and nothing more. My closings get funded, and I get paid. The borrowers are happy that it's handled professionally, and quickly.

You do what works for you, and I'll do what works for me. My clients are HAPPY! The borrowers are HAPPY! The loans go through and fund! It's not our job to explain every line by line item of the docs, nor am I qualified to do so. That's why there's a 3 day RTC on most closings. Make it as hard on yourself as you want to. Spend the day with the borrowers. That's your choice. I close'em, they fund. That's what they hire me to do. I point out everything vital in the loan I need to point out, but it may take you longer to do so. If they want further explanation than other than my normal explanations of what they are signing, they get none. Got no idea why your closings take longer, but if they do, they do. Mine take what I have stated they take on a regular basis, although this one was a real quicky.

Get your schpeel together, and speak to the borrowers all the way through the closing, knowing what each next document will be so you can explain it, as much as you need to, as you go, and your closings will go quicker too. Practice makes perfect!

JJ

Reply by MikeC/NY on 12/11/09 7:00pm
Msg #314049

"Title said page 6 of 6 was missing and wanted me to do an acknowledgment, which I actually had no problem doing as I KNEW I had notarized the doc. I did the ACK and faxed and FedExed it to them this morning."

This has been discussed before, and I'm still not sure what the proper procedure should be. TECHNICALLY, that second ack you sent is questionable in some venues - my state requires that the signers appear before me when I fill out the ack, so I don't think I could do this. Even if you KNEW you had notarized the doc, how do you fill out the second acknowledgment? Do you use today's date? Not true, because they didn't appear before you today. Do you use the date they signed? Now we're into possible backdating....

I don't know what TX law allows, but I'm sure this would not fly in NY (or in several other states) - I cannot notarize unless the signers appear before me at the time I am notarizing. Period. If the TC "loses" the ack and there's no exact copy of the executed document, it requires another signing and notarization. Doing it again without the signers in front of me is not an option, despite the fact that I KNOW we completed it the first time.

Reply by PAW on 12/11/09 8:22pm
Msg #314053

Same for FL

Florida Statutes 117.107(7) through 117.107(9)

Reply by Teresa/FL on 12/10/09 9:45pm
Msg #313938

You are probably thinking about embossing the pages together

Since I use an inked seal instead of an embosser, I note the document name, date, and # of pages on the bottom of any loose certificates I provide.

Reply by TulsaNotary on 12/10/09 10:40pm
Msg #313942

What I usually do after stamping the ack, is to put the two pages (the ack and signature page) side by side, then I stamp both pages at once--1/2 of the seal imprint on one page, the other 1/2 of the imprint on the ack. Have had no complaints or redoes.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/11/09 1:18am
Msg #313956

I think in lots of states (at least mine), that wouldn't fly.

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/11/09 6:05am
Msg #313958

Not a good practice IMHO.

*then I stamp both pages at once--1/2 of the seal imprint on one page, the other 1/2 of the imprint on the ack. Have had no complaints or redoes.*

Good. No re-dos. That's fortunate. Reality: Hope for the best if you ever have to back up this practice to prove your point of matching document pages. It will be a year long process of providing all your records of notary acts, subpoenas, and so forth.

As a lawyer once told me when I shared this scenario with him, it's not good practice for a notary to do anything at all that is not within their rules no matter what the intention. Why accept more liability than you are commissioned for?

Essentially, this half-stamping is intended to provide some sort of additional security to a document to show that two pages go together. This added "value (?)" of your service is worthless without your sworn testimony on how you ALWAYS do this...and let's face it, no one ALWAYS does something exactly the same...just because you have in the past does not mean you will in the future. You are a human, not a computer or machine. Your habits can change.

This could easily backfire on the notary. All that would be needed to prove how unreliable it is would be to produce any document where the notary did not do this....and believe me, human error abounds. You may have a habit of it, but not a sure-fire method of this ALWAYS being the case. AND, if your phone rang and you were distracted and didn't do it on that one case of fraud you might get the chance to crack, then you've got liability by having had any whisper of this practice in your past actions. You've disproved a case.

It's also conceivable that another "matching" set could be coincidentally produced also showing the unreliability of the practice. But,if you want to spend hundreds of your own unpaid for hours trying to scrape together lists of documents you have notarized so you can (or cannot) prove a point against document fraud under subpoena in a court of law (and isn't that your intent?) there's your leap into accepting additional expensive liability.

Besides that, it's not called for in any state's rules.

This kind of a practice gives me an impression of a notary looking into the future and planning on someday giving a "gotcha" testimony on an old Perry Mason re-run...saving the day with the matching half-seals appearing on two pages to disprove fraud. As a notary, I don't want that kind of liability, actual, real, perceived, or imagined.

I wholly disagree with it and believe it's a waste of time, ineffective and will put more liability on the notary than the office calls for. That's just my opinion and a chance to explain why I believe this is a bad practice...your mileage may vary and I'm not a lawyer. I just follow my notary rules.

Reply by TulsaNotary on 12/12/09 3:51pm
Msg #314153

Re: "Good. No re-dos."

"Good. No re-dos."

Oops, I used the verb instead of the noun. Thanks for the correction, Brenda : )

I appreciate the rest of your comment--even though I'm having a tough time getting the deeper meaning. I know your point is valid, I just need it again. This time in 'Gerber-sized' spoonfuls, please. LOL.

Thanks, Phyllis

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/12/09 4:40pm
Msg #314157

Re: "Good. No re-dos."

My short version: If it's not in the state rules, I don't do it.

Of course, as you see, others may disagree with that view. It's each to his own. That's what my legal advisor told me and he would be the one I would get if I had a legal issue...his advice: just to stick with the rules and do not to take on more liability by doing extra things not specifically required in our Texas notary rules/law.

This is also his specific advice on getting thumbprints which Tx notaries are not required to do. (Don't do it.)

Ooops....I see worms crawling everywhere...wow. I think I might have just opened a whole 'nother can o' worms.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 12/10/09 11:33pm
Msg #313947

My loose acknowledgments or jurats always contain the complete description of the documents they are attached to. That way, there is no issue. The ones sold on this site contain printed space for such information, or you can print your own.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 12/11/09 6:20am
Msg #313959

agree w/Brenda & Glenn

I simply include the doc identification within the actual notarial cert language - "...and attached as page 3 of 3 to the Affidavit of Some Stupid Thing or Another."

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/11/09 6:24am
Msg #313961

Back in the day before

concretely stated Tx statutory certificates, a document's ack or jurat would usually state the name of the document in the body of the cert. IMHO, that would continue a good habit from the old days...but they don't let me run this state.

Reply by jba/fl on 12/11/09 7:45am
Msg #313966

Re: Back in the day before

Brenda: I know you think you might have enough on your plate already, but i (yes, just little ole me) think you should plan on running for office and winning so that at least one state in this glorious union could run more smoothly, precisely, and efficiently (best I could do with the superlatives this early am). i even think that those good 'ole boys in TX could admire your tenacity openly and still save face. Your winning ways with words whilst sticking strictly with the facts would serve your state well. Just think - after a few months, you could then be POTUS.

Run Brenda, run!

Reply by John_NorCal on 12/11/09 9:00am
Msg #313977

I would even......

move to the Lone Star state just so I could vote for Brenda :-)

Run Brenda, run!

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/11/09 9:06am
Msg #313979

Hmmm...y'all are making me think!! n/m

Reply by Robert/FL on 12/11/09 10:23am
Msg #313983

The best way to deal with this issue would be to try to avoid loose certificates all together. There are all too many notaries who see one little flaw in the certificate, and instead of correcting that one flaw will attach an entirely separate page. I would suggest that prudent notaries get stamps with their statutory wording to stamp it directly onto the document requiring the notarized signature. Or - it may not look pretty, but IMO it is better to hand-write the certificate on the document than to attach a loose certificate.

I have had situations where the certificate was simply so bad and the format of the document was such that a loose certificate was required. In those instances, I would do as others have suggested, and simply reference the document in the certificate itself, if your state allows (I know California does not allow it in the actual certificate). For example:

=======================================

STATE OF FLORIDA
COUNTY OF HILLSBOROUGH

The foregoing Quit Claim Deed, consisting of this certificate and two preceding pages, executed by John Doe and witnessed by Nancy Doe and Jane Doe, and dated December 8, 2009, for that certain property situate in Hillsborough County, Florida at 123 Main Street, Tampa, Florida, was acknowledged before me by the said John Doe to be his voluntary act and deed. John Doe is personally known to me.

(Signed) Notary Public

=======================================

Of course, there are other alternatives. You could punch a hole in the top corner, run a ribbon through the pages and emboss your seal over a foil seal on top of the ribbons, but this makes it impossible for the document to be recorded or photocopied, and unless the document is going to a foreign country, the document recipient is likely to laugh at you. You could also emboss the two pages together, but as BrendaTx stated above, this is certainly not fool proof.

In reality, there is really nothing the notary can do to prevent that certificate from being separated and attached to another document. However, the instances of that occurring are rare. Bottom line is, the notary fulfilled all of their duties by checking ID, administering the proper oath, and completing an appropriate certificate. The notary's responsibility ends there, and they have no control over what happens to the document.

The best way to protect yourself is simple: keep good records. If you used a loose certificate, write that in your journal, and write a decent description of the document notarized (i.e. for a quit claim deed, also write the location of the property and the names of the grantees).

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/11/09 3:34pm
Msg #314035

Pretty good posting, Robert *The best way to deal with this issue would be to try to avoid loose certificates all together. There are all too many notaries who see one little flaw in the certificate, and instead of correcting that one flaw will attach an entirely separate page.*

I totally agree with you on that.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 12/11/09 11:19am
Msg #313994

A lot of us do this....

We all do it a bit differently, but that's actually a good thing because our methods should be somewhat unique. Even within CA's tight rules, there is a lot of leeway for this.

I create my own loose certificate forms, and they all have a "serial number" on them that I record in my journal. On the form itself, on the bottom, I make sure to record the document information, the title, number of pages, the capacity *claimed* by the signer if it's applicable. And, depending on the circumstances I have an non-notarial embosser that I might use in addition to my seal. I learned this one from the woman that trained me. She insisted that I buy an embosser with my initials... one that I design myself. And rather than use my embossing seal, use this other embosser on both pages, and make sure to indicate that embossment on the loose form. That way, if the loose form disappears, there's just some random embossment on a paper, nothing to indicate that it's notarial seal.

This is done because.... if for some reason the original document is re-done and re-signed with information that matches the notarial certificate, someone that looks at the notarial certificate will see that the signature page should have a matching raised area. I always try to connect the signature page to the notarial certificate in such a way that it can't be easily altered.

It depends on the paperwork being signed, of course... and the notes always go in the journal. You never know when you could be called in to court on something.

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/12/09 7:08am
Msg #314091

Re: A lot of us do this....

Marian's one of the most knowledgeable people I know, someone I read every post of!

However, "great minds" don't always run in the same direction. Like she said, "we all do it a bit differently..."

I don't add anything that's not in the Texas notary rules.

Her practice of connecting the signature page to the loose ack by an embosser would be something I personally would not do as a common practice in my own notary work because it requires something that's not called for in Texas notary rules. It would be a great rule to have to discourage fraud, but the only thing it would do for me in this situation is to prove, yes, the ack goes with the document if the embossing was there. I could not prove it did not go with the ack.if the embossing was not there because it's not a requirement of the Texas law to emboss the signature page and the ack. page. In fact, I would not want to explain why I was using a non-statutory seal. I hope that makes sense.

Lawyers proving or disproving fraud through a line of questioning would be able to chase a rabbit in a case like this, "Oh, so Mrs. Stone, you use a seal in your notary work that is not a statutory seal? And, by what authority do you do that?" So, then I look like the criminal. That's another example of why I'm just going to stick with the rules and assume lawmakers have it written down thoroughly enough to get us by.

That's just my simplified way of approaching notary work. I've shared my thoughts so others can think about extra security measures in order to make their own decisions. I realize that much is left to be desired in notary rules, but until they change that's all I've got to work with.