Posted by Karla/WA on 12/10/09 4:30pm
Msg #313896

Notarial act: Minors visiting family member in Jail

Has anyone ever been asked to notarize a document allowing minors to visit a family member in jail? I've asked the mother to bring her drivers license, the kids' SS cards, parenting plans, etc....to verify they are her children, and she can allow this activity.

Your advice is welcome. Thanks. Karla

Reply by OR on 12/10/09 4:50pm
Msg #313899

You do the same as you do with any other signature you notarize. It is for the signature of the person giving permission usually a parent or guardian. OT and Just IMO only I do not think that minors should be allowed to visit any one in jail. Isn't that part punishment for being in jail.

Reply by SharonMN on 12/10/09 5:00pm
Msg #313902

OR - what about the kids? They aren't being punished! Shouldn't they have the right to see their parent in a limited way?

I agree that the notary need only check the signer's ID and notarize, absent any evidence that something fishy might be going on.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/10/09 4:53pm
Msg #313900

"I've asked the mother to bring ...... the kids' SS cards, parenting plans, etc .... to verify they are her children, and she can allow this activity."

IMO, isn't this outside the scope of your notary duties? It's not up to you, the notary, to verify maternity and maternal authority.

Notarize, don't analyze.

Reply by Karla/WA on 12/10/09 6:24pm
Msg #313906

I don't debate the fact that I probably asked for more information that what was required as a notary. However, to be sure, I contacted WA state Secretary of State and asked them what I was notarizing, especially with the children being minors. It's not my place to say this parent should not take her kids to visit their uncle who is in prison....but, in trying to understand her situation, our Secretary of State Department, sent me to the Department of Corrections. In my conversation with the mother, she indicated she had a restraining order against her husband. He had no part in the children's lives.

In my opinion, without know the marital arrangement and relationship of the children, how would I know this person was the mother and that the father didn't object...if he was not there to provide his permission.
As notaries, we run across various situations. Without knowing what the requirement of the agency was, I truly believe we need to troubleshoot and understand the circumstances. This person had all SS cards, transitional living cards and the orders from the courts indicating she, alone, was the parental unit.
With that information , I could (without hesitation), notarize a document that required parental authorization.

Reply by OR on 12/10/09 6:45pm
Msg #313909

My experance with the one I did. The parent was sending the child with Id for the jail to Id the child with. She was just giving her permission because she was not taking the child her self. I want to beleave that all jails and prisions have already in place how to ID minor children and parenting and anyone else that want to get in and visit.

Reply by John Schenk on 12/10/09 8:05pm
Msg #313919

Karla, it just much more than you need to be able to notarize a doc, and as a public official more than you're really entitled to. If they come to you with an affidavit swearing that their dog doesn't have fleas, and there's a dog sitting next to them with fleas crawling all over his face, it's not our job to determine if that dog is Spot or if it's really Rover, or whether Spot or Rover either one have fleas. LOL Just identify'em and notarize the doc. The truthfulness of what is stated in that doc is none of our business, nor should it be. After you've done it, and just for your own further information you want to make inquiries because the situation interested you, then you can do that for eternity. Not sure why whether she had a restraining order against the father would make any difference as his name wasn't on the doc as a signer anyway, and even if it was and he wasn't before you, you would only be notarizing mom's siggy. Even if it's a jurat, identify'em, swear'em, have'em sign, and stamp it.

If Albert Einstein had came to me with an affidavit that swore out his findings in his Theory of Relativity, it would not have been my job to figure out if that theory were correct or not, nor could I have done so. Al would be the guy swearing to it, whether it was true or not. Wish I had his siggy in my notary book. LOL

Best of luck, Karla. It's always best to keep it simple for the notarial act. What you do after that doesn't matter, but the notarial act still remains your public duty. You shouldn't require more from an individual than what your state's notary laws require in identifying the individual.

Hope you have a SUPER end of the year and a WONDERFUL 2010!

jj

Reply by Maureen_nh on 12/10/09 8:36pm
Msg #313923

Just my two cents worth--if you knew that pup was indeed Spot and knew that he was flea ridden at the time the jurat was signed you couldn't notarize, as it was an obvious and apparant untruth.
Now send her home to get the flea spray and you are good to go.

Reply by John Schenk on 12/10/09 8:44pm
Msg #313927

Not my job to ask if the dog sitting there is Spot or Rover. Also not my job to determine if the fleas or real or if they're mechanical. Is Jane Doe actually Jane Doe signing my docs? If yes, and she swears Spot has no fleas, she's the one swearing to it, not me. Maybe she never even owned a dog named Spot in the first place. How would I know or why would I want to know. Not my job. My Dad named 3 different dogs spot. LOL He's 81 and it's easier to remember. LOL

JJ

Reply by John_NorCal on 12/10/09 8:52pm
Msg #313929

Great analogies John and so true......

what I have seen so often is that some notaries tend to make more of their commission than they should. We are notaries public not investigator, inquisitors or anything else. Don't get above yourself people! Notarize and don't analyze the document, the person or their intent.

Reply by John Schenk on 12/10/09 9:41pm
Msg #313937

Re: Great analogies John and so true......

Thanks, John! They seemed apropos. :-)

JJ

Reply by Maureen_nh on 12/10/09 11:14pm
Msg #313945

Re: Great analogies John and so true......

Maybe the great and glorious state of Texas allows you to notarize a statement that you KNOW is untrue, but I can't get away with that.
In our pursuit of state capitols, we will hopefully be visiting Austin in Feb. Have been told it is the best, of course. I hope it is not another acceptable untruth.

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/11/09 6:22am
Msg #313960

Bob and Maureen...good points but....

while I'm not sure I'd let a pet owner sign a statement about their flea-bitten dogs without getting them to a vet first, here is the definition of a Tx notary's job:

"The primary duty of a Notary Public is to show that a disinterested party (the Notary Public) has duly notified the signer of an instrument as to the importance of such document, and the signer of such document has declared that the signer’s identity, signature, and reasons for signing such instrument are genuine. The signature and seal of a Notary Public do not prove these facts conclusively, but provide prima facie proof of them, and allow persons in trade and commerce to rely upon the truth and veracity of the Notary Public as a third party who has no personal interest in the transaction."

I think such a question regarding notarizing the untruth of a statement deserves a query into the SoS's office. But, alas, I do not think that John has misstated his case too far off base for the Texas version of notary duties.

The day I can't refuse to execute a certificate because I believe it is fraudulent is the day I hang up my stamp/seal.However, the Tx notary is identifying a person based on their presentation of information...and a Tx notary notifies "the signer of an instrument as to the importance of such document, and the signer of such document has declared that the signer’s identity, signature, and reasons for signing such instrument are genuine."

I don't like to see a dog with fleas, but I can't necessarily say John is wrong about lying pet owners. Calls for more investigation which I am not inclined to do this winter morning.

Reply by John Schenk on 12/12/09 12:39am
Msg #314076

Re: Great analogies John and so true......

The GREAT and Glorious State, and Republic, of Texas does not make me determine whether what is stated in an affidavit is true or not. I NEVER said I would notarize a doc I KNEW was not true, now or EVER. Didn't say that, didn't mean that. Maybe my analogy wasn't that good, but that's not at all what I said.

JJ

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 12/10/09 11:09pm
Msg #313943

In a more NSA related situation, assume you are assigned

a signing with O/N dox to bwr. . You are to meet bwr at PIQ, When you call to confirm, bwr
tells you, we need to meet @ Mic Ds. There is a tennant living at the PIQ.
You get to the signing and among the dox is an occupancy affidavit showing PIQ as
his residence.
Bwr has no prolem signing aff. Do you have a problem notarizing it??
Agree that NP should not investigate situation, but I do not believe that you
can notarize a doc containig a statement that NP KNOWS to be false.

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/10/09 11:50pm
Msg #313949

"In my opinion, without know the marital arrangement and relationship of the children, how would I know this person was the mother and that the father didn't object..."

Are you freaking serious? If you really think knowing this type of thing is necessary to perform your notarial duties, you need to turn in your stamp tomorrow, because you obviously don't know jack sh*t about being a notary and severely need some BASIC training about what the purpose of a notary is.

Here's a crash course - does the person signing have legally acceptable ID that verifies who she is? If so, notarize it and be done with it, don't stick your nose where it has no business being. The contents of the document are COMPLETELY irrelevant, and quite frankly, none of your damn business.

Reply by Regal/NC on 12/10/09 6:57pm
Msg #313910

Verify id of signer only. The rest is NIMB. n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 12/10/09 7:25pm
Msg #313915

You just need to identify the signer and notarize her sig.

The rest is not of your concern as a notary public. This is not to be mean, but a notary has no right to put her through the rest of it. Parenting plans? The kids' SS cards? I would never provide that to a notary so I could get a statement of this nature notarized. Just my opinion. I think you've asked too much of her.

Reply by John Schenk on 12/10/09 9:06pm
Msg #313933

Re: You just need to identify the signer and notarize her sig.

Nor my intent to be mean in any way, and I understand her concerns, but that's not something we, as notaries, can really deal with. It would be a violation of your commission in Texas, and your duty as a public officer, although it may not be anywhere else. There's a bit of uniformity in our duties, although they vary in some degree from state to state. I believe her intentions were VERY GOOD!

JJ

Reply by CaliNotary on 12/10/09 11:56pm
Msg #313950

Her intentions were a HUGE invasion into this womans privacy

And when a notary is so completely clueless as to what the role of a notary is, we're not doing the public any favors by sugarcoating things and gently trying to steer her in the right direction. Sometimes a b!tchslap is more effective than a nudge.

Reply by jba/fl on 12/11/09 7:33am
Msg #313965

Thank goodness I had just swallowed my coffee when

reading this - Well said Cali; you have a succinct homing on this issue, (as with many others).

Reply by lindetteh_PA on 12/10/09 8:20pm
Msg #313921

I aggree you should only be concerned with identifying the signer. The prison facility will verify if the mother is acually the childrens parent guardian.

Reply by John Schenk on 12/10/09 10:27pm
Msg #313940

Everyone be Good so Santa comes to see you!

Gotta hit it hard again tomorrow. Hugs to all! Hug your loved ones, and thank God for our elder loved ones that they are still with us.

God Bless!

JJ

Reply by Robert/FL on 12/11/09 10:28am
Msg #313984

An acknowledgment is an acknowledgment. It doesn't matter what the document says. If a person signs a document and says to a notary, "This is my signature", that's all the notary needs. Every page of this message board has somebody asking "How do I notarize a .....?". It doesn't matter what the document is. If the certificate is compliant with your state's requirements, you've checked ID, made sure the person understands what they're signing, the notary has done their job.

Unless you actually KNOW for a fact that the person is NOT the child's mother, there is no need to question her. What she swears to in a document is not your concern. I could go to a notary and swear that I was born in Antarctica... unless the notary knows, as an absolute fact, that I was NOT born in Antarctica, the notary has no authority to verify that what I'm swearing to is correct. That's the affiant's job, not the notary's.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 12/11/09 10:38am
Msg #313986

It's been awhile Robert-welcome back

Glad to see you are back, and dolling out some pretty good advice.

Reply by jba/fl on 12/11/09 11:36am
Msg #313997

Re: It's been awhile Robert-welcome back

It's like you grew up overnight. Welcome; nice to see you again.