Posted by enotary/va on 12/15/09 11:15am
Msg #314418
islamic signing
just a question. have an islamic closing tomorrow. i've done several in the past, usually get one every 6-8 months. in the past i have found they don't call a "note" a note or "interest", interest. just curious if anyone is familiar with this and knows the verbage that is used. i've always made it through them but thought it would be intersting to see what others thought.
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Reply by Roger_OH on 12/15/09 11:44am
Msg #314422
They can call it whatever they want, but for your purposes, the docs still say "Note" and "interest rate"; that's the way the lender wants you to present them.
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/15/09 12:48pm
Msg #314436
I agree with Roger...
Just present the document as you normally would - it's not up to you to redefine the docs or translate them into what you think they want to hear - they are what they are - a Note with applicable Interest Rate.
If it's an issue, I'd get the LO/Broker or title on the phone to clarify for the borrowers if necessary.
MHO
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Reply by enotary/va on 12/15/09 2:40pm
Msg #314458
They can call it whatever they want, but for your purposes, the docs still say "Note" and "interest rate"; that's the way the lender wants you to present them.
The lender wants me not to call a "Note" a note and "interest rate" an interest rate;
The leander pays me twice what i would make to not call out those names.
I guess you have never done one.....
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/15/09 3:10pm
Msg #314469
I've never done one...
But if I have specific instructions from lender and/or title not to refer to the documents as printed but by some other name then I'd be asking just how THEY want me to refer to them. Avoids insulting the borrower and alienating the hiring party.
MHO
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Reply by Roger_OH on 12/15/09 3:30pm
Msg #314475
Wrong, weedhopper...
I've done a number of them. Shoes off, not shaking hands with the female, and checking the face beneath her burqua to confirm ID, etc. Been there, done that. It's their home, their customs, and that's fine. The documents, though, go beyond the home setting. They don't care what anyone's religion is.
You didn't mention any special lender instructions in your original post. If the lender is going to pay you double to call the note something else, then knock yourself out.
I'm only saying if the doc says NOTE in black and white, then THAT'S indeed what they're signing, regardless of what you call it. By any name, you'd best ensure that they know what the doc is for.
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Reply by enotary/va on 12/15/09 4:55pm
Msg #314497
Re: Wrong, weedhopper...
weedhopper?? Wow!! Your mom sure picked a wild name for you... Sorry!!!
I should have said what the lender wants in the first posting. Everyone have a great xmas!!!
P.S. I have never done a car title... Don't have the time....
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Reply by Bob_Chicago on 12/15/09 12:14pm
Msg #314428
I might well be incorrect on this, but I believe that
the prohibition is to CHARGING interest, not to PAYING it.
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Reply by Luckydog on 12/15/09 12:26pm
Msg #314430
Re: I might well be incorrect on this, but I believe that
Never heard of that, but some do not like to shake hands, and some want you to remove your shoes when you enter. lol
I just do a normal closing, and explain what I normally do.
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Reply by Bob_Chicago on 12/15/09 12:44pm
Msg #314435
Looks like I was incorrect. We have a large Islamic
population in Chicagoland , but the the issue has never come up in
many signings with, apparent, Islamic borrowers.
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/mtg/20000714.asp
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Reply by Charles_Ca on 12/15/09 1:18pm
Msg #314440
Thanks Bob, extremely interesting article...
I always thought, like you, that Sharia law prohibited the charging of interest to another Muslim, all infidels are fair game. I didn't realize that they were also prohibited form paying it although logically it does not make much sense to me. I understand the interpretation that chargin imterst cold be considered immoral but paying it does not carry the same burden, at least in my way of thinking.
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Reply by wisconsin on 12/15/09 2:29pm
Msg #314456
Very interesting Bob, Thanks for posting n/m
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Reply by enotary/va on 12/15/09 2:46pm
Msg #314461
Re: Very interesting Bob, Thanks for posting
They can call it whatever they want, but for your purposes, the docs still say "Note" and "interest rate"; that's the way the lender wants you to present them.
The lender wants me not to call a "Note" a note and "interest rate" an interest rate;
The leander pays me twice what i would make to not call out those names.
I guess you have never done one.....
Thanks everyone. Sorry i put this on twice... I guess things are different for this company..
Everyone have a great xmas.
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Reply by jba/fl on 12/15/09 6:55pm
Msg #314520
Correction:
"Everyone have a great xmas."
Christ died on the cross; he was not x-ed out. It is still Christmas.
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Reply by dickb/wi on 12/15/09 7:12pm
Msg #314524
Re: Very interesting Bob, Thanks for posting
the note:....this document sir is your promise to pay the money back that is advanced on your behalf.........the mortgage:....and this document sir is the collateral for the document that is your promise to pay......................
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Reply by dickb/wi on 12/15/09 7:14pm
Msg #314526
not addressing this to u bob but to enotary.... n/m
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Reply by Les_CO on 12/16/09 9:33am
Msg #314578
Re: Looks like I was incorrect. We have a large Islamic
Could this be why Dubai is having all their problems?
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Reply by MikeC/NY on 12/15/09 5:06pm
Msg #314504
As I recall, Islam has a prohibition against charging or paying interest. As with many other religious prohibitions, creative ways are often found to get around them. The deal is structured in such a way that no interest is being charged or paid, but there is still a return on investment to the party lending the money. You just can't call it interest.
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Reply by LKT/CA on 12/15/09 6:13pm
Msg #314515
<<<As I recall, Islam has a prohibition against charging or paying interest.>>>
Then they need to go back to an Islamic country and borrow Islamic monies. Don't borrow American monies and then bark out orders on what the terms can be labeled. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. JMHO
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Reply by Pat/IL on 12/15/09 9:37pm
Msg #314542
As I recall from a conversation with a local banker who is familiar with lending to those of the Islamic faith, they use the word 'profit'. I could be wrong, but that's what my memory has to offer.
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Reply by BrendaTx on 12/16/09 12:51pm
Msg #314616
In the years of 20XX bankers and lawyers alike
work with those of the Islamic faith regarding this principle. Golden rule: He who has the gold makes the rules. Whatever the lender wants it called is what it is. It may be one Islamic lending to another...such was the case in my doc prep experience....No interest could be charged but there was a "profit"; think that was how they said it.
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Reply by hp/MD on 12/15/09 9:38pm
Msg #314543
Wow LKT/CA. come down from your horse and let's walk. Those Muslims who come here love this country.
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Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/15/09 11:51pm
Msg #314561
True. As do many very different people from many different faiths, cultures, former nationalities, etc., etc. The very first Americans came here to escape the discrimination that they had found in their former lands and every generation since has seen another influx of courageous people willing to leave their known lives behind to start over here. Our diversity is one of the things that has made this country the great place that it is. I could go on, but I'd have to take this over to just politics and.... well, enough said.
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Reply by LKT/CA on 12/16/09 12:21am
Msg #314565
<<<Wow LKT/CA. come down from your horse and let's walk.>>>
Oh puhleez!!
<<<Those Muslims who come here love this country.>>>
When you love a country, you adapt to IT, you don't expect IT to start RE-labeling IT's terms to suit you. You accept what IT calls its terms, or get out and go find a place that labels the terms to your liking. In other words, you don't go to another land and make demands on the other land to suit you. Assimilate or don't borrow THIS country's monies and start telling THIS country what to call the terms to make you comfortable.
Go to the Islamic country and see if they change THEIR terms to suit you. This is America so do as the American's do. MHO
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Reply by loancloser46 on 12/15/09 10:05pm
Msg #314546
LKT/CA
I completely agree with you!!!!!! As a woman I have held out my hand MANY times with the idea of being polite and introducing myself and had a male of the muslim faith look at my hand like I have leprosy and ignore my extended hand. It is plain and simple RUDE!!!!
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Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/15/09 11:28pm
Msg #314559
OTOH, as a professional, I learn cultural protocols of my
work-a-day world, so as to competently breeze through transactions.
We are not Romans, and this isn't Rome.
Notarize, don't analyze; learn about, don't hate.
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Reply by BrendaTx on 12/16/09 12:58pm
Msg #314618
Susie, our politics aren't the same but on this we totally
agree.
At my job/desk or in a loan signing my purpose is to offer consideration and service of those who need my assistance no matter where they are from or who they are. In every job if you treat those who need your service as if you are their personal customer service representative it improves your standing with those who hire you/pay you...not to mention it just makes me encounter less friction and feel happier inside.
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Reply by LKT/CA on 12/16/09 1:12pm
Msg #314621
Re: Susie, our politics aren't the same but on this we totally
You kowtowing to others is one thing...Them expecting to be kowtowed TO is quite another. Others speaking their native language (your other post) is totally nonsequitur to the discussion.
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Reply by Susan Fischer on 12/16/09 1:38pm
Msg #314626
I don't kow-tow, I facilitate business transactions in my
professional capacity without judgment.
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Reply by BrendaTx on 12/16/09 7:25pm
Msg #314681
I totally agree...
*Others speaking their native language (your other post) is totally nonsequitur to the discussion.*
Of course it was a non seqitur.
So was the handshake remarks I responded to, so I thought.
But the point is that we can choose to take offense (when none is intended) or we can do business and live without looking for troublesome behaviors from other cultures. I can't be worried about a Middle Eastern man's view of me because I am a female. As a wise, albeit liberal thinking notary named Bob once said, "Hey, I just have to put up with poor behavior out of borrowers for an hour. They have to live with themselves." Ain't it the truth! Life is too short to borrow trouble...it gets shorter each year.
I just don't get a lot of heartburn over foreign customs...especially if their transactions create money for the NSA. I think that when America was young that many customs were brought here from other countries and continue to survive although we do not see them because they are so much a part of who we are now. The German, the Irish, the English, Swedish and so forth. In fact, one of my family's favorites at Christmas and Thanksgiving...diced apple salad is one of those Swedish customs from the Old Country.
Just to be clear, my experience the interest/Islamic thing was between a Bank of Islam (or some such) and a member/citizen of Islam (did I say that right?). Doesn't matter really...it's up to the lender as to what they want it to be phrased as with their client. As long as the docs say it (and the ones I experienced did) then it's their right to have it so.
It would be interesting to know the bank's name...but of course, I understand if that's not going to be revealed here.
Great discussion!
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Reply by BrendaTx on 12/16/09 1:04pm
Msg #314619
Re: LKT/CA
*It is plain and simple RUDE!!!!*
And, when I get my nails done, my manicurist speaks in Vietnamese so I cannot understand...when I am at the grocery store Hispanics talk in a language I can't understand. That drives some people out of their minds. Not me. I am absolutely 100% comfortable with myself and assume that if someone is talking around me in a language I cannot understand that it doesn't concern me.
If my hand was not taken in a greeting I would immediately assume it was either cultural or germophobic. I don't think it is all about ME.
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Reply by ReneeK_MI on 12/16/09 6:17am
Msg #314569
LKT - and just what country do you live in?
Believe it or not, but THIS country has a First Ammendment protecting all citizens of any faith from the very actions you propose.
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Reply by LKT/CA on 12/16/09 12:01pm
Msg #314599
Re: LKT - and just what country do you live in?
MHO and I stand by it. We'll agree to disagree and call it a day.
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Reply by LKT/CA on 12/16/09 1:24pm
Msg #314622
Re: LKT - and just what country do you live in?
I live in the same country you live in - America. You have misinterpreted the First Amendment....I don't "propose" anything. Let's see....a virgin girl is raped - and what's worse, the offense was by her male relatives. Now that she is "defiled", her family kills her. THEIR RELIGION does not call it murder but "honor killing".....they "call it" honor killing.....AMERICA "calls it" murder. Now, let's see, can they practice their religion and the "honor" killer walk away scott free? NOT IN THIS COUNTRY!!
Oh, remember, they have First Amendment rights to practice their religion and their religion doesn't CALL IT what America calls it, right? The First Amendment does not allow anyone to RENAME an established term. And it certainly does not allow any religion to supersede the laws of THIS land.
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Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/16/09 7:38pm
Msg #314683
Thank you, Renee! Agree wholeheartedly!
In fact, that is one of the key things that make ours such a great and unique country. Our Bill of Rights was intended (among other things) to protect the diversity of beliefs and customs of ALL Americans - not just the majority - as long as they don't go against our laws or impinge on someone else's rights. Unlike other nations, it doesn't have to be "this way or the highway" like in many other countries. (Thank goodness!!)
I don't recall ever hearing about a law that states that a certain document needs to be described in a certain way... 
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