Posted by Vtanotary on 2/12/09 10:56am
Msg #277271

CA Vehicle Salesperson license

Has anyone ever been presented a State of California Vehicle Salesperson license as ID? It looks just like a CA drivers license, but says Vehicle Salesperson license. I checked the DMV and it is issued by them and the person has to go thru a background check, etc. But, according to the class I just took, it is not an acceptable form of ID (actually it is just excluded in the list of what is acceptable).

Reply by Calnotary on 2/12/09 11:24am
Msg #277274

people don't pay attention. I used to have a Car salesperson ID for CA and when I went to the bank several times and they requested CA ID because I was withdrawing a few hundreds of some times a couple of thousand dollars I just gave them my Car salesperson's ID and they take! As far as notarization I would have to read the handbook and that one but I think that not even mentions it, I could be wrong.

Reply by Vtanotary on 2/12/09 11:27am
Msg #277275

Was the license also your legal drivers license? Or is it just an official State ID?

Reply by Calnotary on 2/12/09 11:48am
Msg #277278

NO, it said Vehicle Salesperson Lic. and you not supposed to show that one to the cops when they stop you.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 2/12/09 1:40pm
Msg #277301

Calnotary,

What did you have to do to get the license? Fingerprints? background check?. These days it seems that anyone that is breathing can get a California DL or ID card. That's why I am curious what procedure you went through to get it. The procedure might be more valid than a DL or ID. Of course, you probably had to show your DL as an ID to get the license, right?

Regardless on what answers we get from the SOS, DMV or other state agency on whether we can take it for an ID or not, you don't really know unless you get caught up in a court case involving using the salesperson's license and see how the judge or jury rules? So the question you would have to ask yourself before you take it as an ID, "Do I feel Lucky?". Me, if I make a mistake, I like to make that mistake on the side of caution.

Reply by Calnotary on 2/12/09 2:42pm
Msg #277315

Re;Glenn

You have to present a CA D.L. a car dealership has to give you their business lic number that goes in the appt. form and then you go to your local police dept. for the fingerprints. I never worked as car salesman, but that was my second option if loan signings didn't picked up back in 2005. I had a few work interviews but I think they all felt that I was too honest to be selling cars. They want real sharks there!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/12/09 12:14pm
Msg #277282

Nope, it's not acceptable because it is not a drivers license or an ID card in the traditional sense. It's an occupational license. Think of it like our commission certificates.

It does not count as an employee ID either, because the person doesn't actually work for a state, county or city agency. They have to have a CA DL or ID anyway... so why they don't just present that instead is a little odd.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/12/09 12:32pm
Msg #277285

Disagree with you, Marian - See page 3 of your handbook:

Newly adopted legislation effective January 1, 2009, amends Civil Code sections 1185 and
1196 and Government Code section 8206. Civil Code section 1185 has been amended to add
employee identification cards issued by an agency or office of the State of California or a city,
county or city and county in this state, to the list of identification documents that can be used as
satisfactory evidence to prove the identity of the signer. Civil Code section 1196 provides that
the identity of a subscribing witness must now be proved by the oath of a credible witness who
provides the notary public with satisfactory evidence as described in Civil Code section 1185.
The amendment to Government Code section 8206 relating to the notary public’s journal contents
does not require any change in current practice.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/12/09 12:37pm
Msg #277286

Re: Disagree with you, Marian - Also see page 8.

The original poster described a government issued card.

I think that's what the last line below is talking about...

A. Paper Identification Documents – Identity of the signer can be established by the notary
public’s reasonable reliance on the presentation of any one of the following documents, if the
identification document is current or has been issued within five years (Civil Code section
1185(b)(3) & (4)):
1. An identification card or driver’s license issued by the California Department of Motor
Vehicles;
2. A United States passport;
3. Other California-approved identification card, consisting of any one of the following,
provided that it also contains a photograph, description of the person, signature of the person,
and an identifying number:
(a) A passport issued by a foreign government, provided that it has been stamped by the U.S.
Immigration and Naturalization Service or the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services;
(b) A driver’s license issued by another state or by a Canadian or Mexican public agency
authorized to issue driver’s licenses;
(c) An identification card issued by another state;
(d) A United States military identification card with the required photograph, description of
the person, signature of the person, and an identifying number. (Some military identification
cards do not contain all the required information.);
(e) An inmate identification card issued by the California Department of Corrections and
Rehabilitation, if the inmate is in custody.
(f) An employee identification card issued by an agency or office of the State of California,
or an agency or office of a city, county, or city and county in California.

=========
Clearly whoever was teaching the class doesn't have a current handbook.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/12/09 12:42pm
Msg #277288

but the good thing is that I'm not in California, so

it doesn't really matter what I think!

If it works like Tx Sos, though, if you call to get clarification from them they'll probably just read the book out loud to you like Jan said.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/12/09 12:53pm
Msg #277289

Re: Disagree with you, Marian - Also see page 8.

Well, I did consider that... but this is NOT an employee ID card, it's an occupational license. It is issued by the Occupational Licensing (OL) branch of the DMV.

Per here: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vehindustry/ol/olbranch_top.htm

They monitor businesses and individuals dealing with motor vehicles. It's exactly the same as how the Dept. of Real Estate (DRE) works with salespersons and brokers, or how the Dept. of Social Services (DSS) works with daycare centers or the Dept. of Health Services (DHS) deals with hospitals and skilled nursing facilities. They are a regulatory agency that issues permission to operate in a capacity... but they are NOT employers themselves.

So, just because the DMV issues their occupation license is a format that looks exactly like an ID... doesn't make it an ID for notarial purposes. But that's how I look at it.... I would call the OL office and ask, but they're closed today. The SOS won't be helpful... they'll just say to go by the handbook.

I did consider that this might fall under #1... an ID card issued by the DMV... but, the DMV doesn't call it an ID card, they call it an occupational license.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/12/09 1:18pm
Msg #277297

Re: Disagree with you, Marian - Also see page 8.

*I did consider that this might fall under #1... an ID card issued by the DMV... but, the DMV doesn't call it an ID card, they call it an occupational license. *


Guess this shall remain a mystery!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/12/09 1:28pm
Msg #277299

Re: Disagree with you, Marian - Also see page 8.

At least until tomorrow when I call them and ask if they consider this to be an ID card.

Reply by janCA on 2/12/09 2:01pm
Msg #277304

CA SOS

You usually have to take what the CA SOS says with a grain of salt because they, for the most part, don't know either. I doubt whether most are notaries themselves and I think they just do a lot of guessing when it comes to certain laws. I've never gotten a straight answer from them, whoever it is that I talk to usually has to ask the question to someone else. Lots of him/hawing, and then they refer to the book, and take a great big guess.

Reply by janCA on 2/12/09 12:29pm
Msg #277284

Vt, I've never seen this card nor has anyone ever presented it to me, but the notary law is somewhat vague when it states, "identification card". If this was issued by the DMV and has all the requirements of a state-issued ID card, I really don't see why it wouldn't be acceptable. When in doubt, call the SOS, although they will probably just regurgitate what is in the handbook.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/12/09 12:57pm
Msg #277290

Jan, that was my initial response, too... but as far as I can tell, the DMV doesn't call this an ID card, they call it an occupational license.

https://mv.dmv.ca.gov/olinq2/welcome.do

Of course, if they *DO* consider it a legitimate ID comparable to the actual DL/ID... I'm cool with it. But, the office is closed today so we can't ask.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/12/09 2:11pm
Msg #277308

Not meant as opinion since I don't live in CA, but just a couple of observations:

The DMV doesn't issue a driver ID - it issues a driver license, which can be used to ID the person carrying it. Doesn't an occupational license serve the same purpose, especially when it looks the same as a driver license? One says the person is licensed to drive, the other says the person is licensed to sell cars. Both ID the person the same way, right? Logically, the answer should be yes, but law and logic are often two different things.

I can't understand why the DMV would purposely issue two virtually identical documents and expect only one to be used for ID, but then again this IS the DMV we're talking about. Someone made a comment about not being supposed to show it to a cop as ID. Now that actually makes sense, because the cop probably doesn't care about your occupation but probably does care about whether you're supposed to be driving the car he just stopped you in...

Reply by RickG/CA on 2/12/09 3:24pm
Msg #277322

"I can't understand why the DMV would purposely issue two virtually identical documents and expect only one to be used for ID, but then again this IS the DMV we're talking about."

Well, there's a third card the "Identification Card" looks the same save for the name.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/12/09 3:44pm
Msg #277325

Mike, the DMV also issues an Identification Card for ID purposes only. The Driver's License is a license but can also be used for official ID purposes.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/12/09 4:17pm
Msg #277331

"Mike, the DMV also issues an Identification Card for ID purposes only. The Driver's License is a license but can also be used for official ID purposes."

We have something like that here too - DMV can issue an ID card for those who don't drive. I don't think it looks like a DL; I'll have to check my father's, he got one when he stopped driving several years ago.

I would think that if you can use a driver license as an ID, it shouldn't matter what kind of other license you use as long as it's issued by a government agency and all the required elements are there. Doesn't make sense to me to do otherwise, but there's things we do here that don't make sense to people in other states, so I guess it's a wash. I'd be interested in learning what you finally find out, because now I'm curious.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/12/09 4:07pm
Msg #277330

Mike - Tx has a wonderful set of criteria...

Government issued with a picture.

Passport.
State gun toting licenses.
Driver licenses.
ID Card's issued by DMV.

Easy.

Reply by RickG/CA on 2/12/09 4:17pm
Msg #277332

Re: Mike - Tx has a wonderful set of criteria...

State gun toting licenses

I ain't lying, I believe I may be persuaded to positively ID a person who presents this

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/12/09 4:28pm
Msg #277336

Re: Mike - Tx has a wonderful set of criteria...

NY is even easier -

"Satisfactory evidence"

That's it, in it's entirety. It's up to the notary.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/12/09 5:58pm
Msg #277351

Re: Mike - Tx has a wonderful set of criteria...

Wait...I don't even need a picture--just an identification card.

Here's what the rules say: "...the Notary Public must use an identification card issued by a governmental agency or a passport issued by the United States to identify the signer."

Unless somewhere (else) "identification card" is defined as having a picture. Somewhere I got that idea. Need to re-study...but not tonight....maybe tomorrow...tomorrow...I love tomorrow.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/12/09 11:26pm
Msg #277387

Re: Mike - Tx has a wonderful set of criteria...

"Wait...I don't even need a picture--just an identification card. "

Pictures?? We don't need no stinking pictures....

I would really prefer that my state be a tad more specific about what constitutes acceptable ID but that's probably not going to happen in my lifetime. My personal standard of "satisfactory evidence" (other than personal knowledge) is a government-issued photo ID or a passport.

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/12/09 1:20pm
Msg #277298

I've seen one. Auto salespersons need one when they sell autos for a dealer.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vehindustry/ol/salesperson.htm

Vehicle Salesperson license looks **exactly** like a CA driver's license and has the title "Vehicle Salesperson's License" instead of the usual "Driver's License" title. On the DMV website the application for a VSL shows that you have to include your driver's license number on the application. (Could that make a difference?)

As far as it being acceptable ID....it certainly is "satisfactory" since it's issued by the DMV and has all four elements (photo, physical description, ID number and signature). But like Marian said, it's occupational....private occupational as auto dealerships are not government entities but private ones.

I suppose the bottom line is: Does the VSL provide **satisfactory evidence**? It does....but it's not part of the list of acceptable ID's per the CA SOS.

The great debate will continue......

Reply by janCA on 2/12/09 1:51pm
Msg #277302

It states on Page 10 of the handbook under Paper ID documents, subsection 1. An identification card or DL issued by the CA DMV. There is no explanation of the term "identification card" so it's all in how it is interpreted. We've just always assumed it meant the CA ID card, but that is not stated. Like I said in my prior post, if this card had all the necessary elements and it's issued by the DMV, I would have no problem accepting it.

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/12/09 3:47pm
Msg #277327

<<<Like I said in my prior post, if this card had all the necessary elements and it's issued by the DMV, I would have no problem accepting it.>>>

I agree with you. I'd gladly accept it if the SOS ok's them. At least we can be assured of what the VSL looks like, while I wouldn't have a clue as to what other city, state, gov't worker ID's are supposed to look like. No point of reference.

Reply by Gary_CA on 2/12/09 2:48pm
Msg #277318

Alternative ID silliness

First off, I don't see any great debate about this one. A car salesman license is just that. It's not a DMV ID card and it's not a government agency employee ID. Nope. Can't use it. End of story.

This latest addition to our handbook that allows state and local agency employee ID's was written by a bunch of drunken monkeys.

All California notaries have a good idea of what a California driver's license is supposed to look like. Same thing with a US Passport. No problem.

But I have no frigging idea what a City of Glendora Waste Management Department Employee ID should look like. No idea whatsoever. Are Orange County Public Health Department badges vertical or horizontal???

This opens up a whole world of fraud possibilities. And for what??? We all know it's a small percentage of (legal) signers that don't have a passport or driver's license. When we run across one we have to scramble... but what small percentage of that small group happens to be city/county or state employees?

If they do have a DL or passport, that we can easily verify, why would we want to take their employee ID instead. But since they're accepted in the new code. If I were presented a Weed CA City Weed Controller badge filled out in crayola and laminated in seran wrap I could not legally insist on credible witnesses.

Sheer stupidity.

Reply by Lee/AR on 2/12/09 3:01pm
Msg #277321

I think you're insulting drunken monkeys

CA's decision to accept alternate IDs is about equal in brainwork to the USA's thinking about the Susan B. Anthony dollar.

Reply by davidK/CA on 2/12/09 4:01pm
Msg #277329

You can't insult the legislature and governor enough...

This stupid change in the acceptable ID rules accomplishes nothing except additional confusion.

A "CALIFORNIA DRIVER LICENSE" OR "CALIFORNIA IDENTIFICATION CARD" says exactly that in large print on the top. Easy to understand and recognize. Anything else is not a driver's license or identification card issued by the California DMV.

BUT, who could possibly know what the thousands of state, county and city employee identification cards look like? Are they legitimate or are they forgeries produced on some home computer? There is no book with up to date illustrations available to the Notary Public that could be used to detect the obvious frauds. Some much for California's efforts to control ID Theft. But of course the California Assembly and Senate members have their legal employee identification cards to use instead of the suspended driver's license.

Reply by RickG/CA on 2/12/09 4:22pm
Msg #277333

WHERE'S THE NNA WHEN YOU NEED THEM n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/12/09 6:00pm
Msg #277352

Need the NNA?...RoFLMAO! n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/12/09 3:45pm
Msg #277326

Re: Alternative ID silliness

<<<First off, I don't see any great debate about this one. A car salesman license is just that. It's not a DMV ID card and it's not a government agency employee ID. Nope. Can't use it. End of story.>>>

NOT the end of story (maybe to you)....the handbook states on page 8, "Identity is established if the notary public is presented with SATISFACTORY EVIDENCE of the signer's identity" and it goes on the define satisfactory evidence via paper identification. The notarial certificates say the signer has "proved to me based on SATISFACTORY EVIDENCE.." Our notarial certificates do not say "proved to me based on a driver's licence (or other listed ID)......it says SATISFACTORY evidence. And while the VSL is an occupational license, it IS government issued and does contain the required four elements and one must include their driver's license on the VSL application. I would trust a VSL from the DMV long before I'd trust a city or state worker ID that I have no way of knowing what it's SUPPOSED to look like or if it's even current or legitimate. The VSL is not something everyone has and I'm sure we'll rarely see it but at least I know what it's supposed to look like. Ultimately, it's up to the CA SOS whether we can accept it.

So in MHO....the great debate (i.e., satisfactory evidence) will continue.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/12/09 5:10pm
Msg #277342

Re: Alternative ID silliness

<<<I would trust a VSL from the DMV long before I'd trust a city or state worker ID that I have no way of knowing what it's SUPPOSED to look like or if it's even current or legitimate.>>>

Now, that I TOTALLY agree with. I'm not saying I wouldn't take the VSL... I'm just not convinced it's an identification card for the sake of identification just yet. While we do go by satisfactory evidence, the state still dictates the parameters of said evidence. Obviously, this is not an employee ID card.... but is it "an identification card issued by the DMV"??

I'll call them tomorrow and ask... if they're open. Seems the DMV is always closed lately.

I, like many others, don't like the whole employee ID card bit... there's just no way I could tell if it's legitimate or not. Some goof could make up an ID with all the elements from a city I've never heard of or a county way up north and I'd never know if it were legit or not. Of all the changes the legislature could have made to our notary laws... they add that one?

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/12/09 8:03pm
Msg #277365

Re: Alternative ID silliness

<<<Some goof could make up an ID with all the elements from a city I've never heard of or a county way up north and I'd never know if it were legit or not.>>>

Exactly!! I was born in southern CA, never lived outside of southern CA and there are cities I've barely heard of until recently (Anza, Amboy, Essex, Earp, Daggett, Trona, Fawnskin, Red Mountain, Pearblossom, Orcutt, Yermo, Oro Grande, etc.) .... if there are southern CA cities I've barely or never heard of, you can bet there's central and northern CA cities I've never heard of.

How will a notary in the field verify a city, state, gov't worker ID from someplace they've never heard of? Not only would they have to confirm that the city exists, but the city, state, gov't entity exists and then verify if the ID is legit. With no point of reference as to what the ID should look like <okay I'm getting dizzy just thinking about all this>......

The bottom line for me is - for the person using their worker ID - I have to be SATISFIED, and a questionable ID from a questionable town and from a questionable entity will not satisfy me.

<<<Of all the changes the legislature could have made to our notary laws... they add that one?>>>

I know, huh? What were they thinking? (or drinking?)

Reply by rengel/CA on 2/12/09 11:27pm
Msg #277388

Pretty much a non-issue

The salesmans license must be displayed at the dealership where the salesperson works so you will rarely, if ever, see this as a form of ID in the state of California.

Much ado about nothing. My .02

(I am a former car dealer)