Posted by Janie Kearns on 2/18/09 10:51am
Msg #277905

Payment for Errors?

Just out of curiosity.. If a you make a mistake on a loan closing, such as "failing to notarize" a document that is required for the loan to fund, would you expect full payment for the closing, if there were yours? If the "cost to cure" is the say.. the amount of the shipping to fee to correct said document, would not expect the fee to be deducted from your pay?

Reply by jba/fl on 2/18/09 10:55am
Msg #277906

Ok - let me re-phrase this as your wording is dicey and then you agree/disagree that I get this right.

You made a mistake. You paid the ship charge to return the corrected document, therefore, you feel that there should not be adjustment to your pay/fee.

Reply by jba/fl on 2/18/09 10:56am
Msg #277907

Also, did they prove that you did not notarize? ie, show you the un-notarized page?

Reply by lindetteh_PA on 2/18/09 11:25am
Msg #277910

Seems to me the question is coming from the TC or SS point of view. Yes I would expect the 2nd shipping fee to be deducted from my fee if they gave me the opition to use there account # again. I have seen on confirmations that you will have to pay for shipping upfront if an error is made

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/18/09 11:33am
Msg #277913

Yes.. the question is coming from the Signing Service point of view. I provided a closing to someone I have worked with for quite sometime. Lately something has changed in her work, don't know what it is, but regardless, she neglected to place her stamp on a document. The lender wanted to "ship" the original and have it "shipped" back. I offered another solution. I provided an acknowledgment as an attachment. That way I would "email" the blank document to the notary, have her sign and notarize it and "ship" it to the lender in California. This would reduce the "cost to cure" by reducing the shipping to "one way" rather than both. She is furious that I deducted the $24.00 from her pay. I do not want to be known as a cheat, so I am reimburing her, but will not use her again. I feel she is being dishonest and wanted to know if my point of view is off ??? I would think it is common sense that if you make a mistake (and I have before) that I would pay for it. I don't understand how she thinks she "should not" be held responsible. She told me she had never heard of deducting monies for errors made by the notary.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/18/09 11:40am
Msg #277915

" I offered another solution. I provided an acknowledgment as an attachment. That way I would "email" the blank document to the notary, have her sign and notarize it and "ship" it to the lender in California. "

Umm..no...what makes you think the notary is going to sign and stamp a blank acknowledgment without the document it's being attached to....

I do agree that the notary should correct her own error on her own dime, and if that notary has never heard of that then she's one very lucky notary...however the procedure you propose is not acceptable...the original document should have been shipped to her for correction. However, you then run into the date of the cert....another whole issue for another whole thread....

If it were me I would not sign a blank acknowledgment ... MHO

Reply by jba/fl on 2/18/09 11:41am
Msg #277916

Who has the biggest error here?

Did you, in your ss capacity, inform that there would be deductions, a "cost to cure", should she make mistakes? If so, well, the shoe fits.

If not, your error in not disclosing. As Kevin/Ct pointed out in another post today, one cannot change the rules after the game begins.

Also, did the notary in question return to the borrower to have the document resigned? Did she use the new date of the new signing, or did she just stamp the old ack. and was done with it? Here's where the big error comes into play: Florida law does not allow one to just stamp and be on their way. It must go back to the original signer, be signed and notarized with the new date. Again, who has the biggest error here?

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/18/09 1:30pm
Msg #277955

Re: Who has the biggest error here?

There is a difference between modifying the terms of an agreement with new or additional terms and a failure to perform the agreement (breach) whose terms to which the notary has agreed.

All contracts include an implied term that the work undertaken will be performed in competent and workmanlike manner. This theory is the contract law equivalent of a tort claim for negligence.

If the notary missed a signature or an acknowledgement he/she has breached the contract, and is liable for compensatory damages. He /she may also be liable for consequential damages in a greater amount if they were the foreseeable outgrowth of the breach.

There would be no need to modify the contract since it would be a matter of enforcing the claim for breach of a contract the terms of which the notary has agreed to undertake. It seems to me that a deduction from the notaries fee in an amount equal to the overnight mailing fee would be reasonable.

The other side of the coin would be to deny payment to the notary in its entirety. However, the signing service/TC would not be able to use the completed documents without waiving it claim for damages. The notary's liability could be a lot worse. If the entire mortgage transaction failed because of his/her failure to perform...it is conceivable that the notary could be found liable for the signing service's/TC's losses including a claim asserted against them by the lender. There is also the matter of a claim for negligence which could be made against a notary.

Reply by jba/fl on 2/18/09 2:01pm
Msg #277967

Kevin I knew you would chime in here - thanks. I will

concede paragraph 2 of my post to your logic and understanding of the law and will take that correction in stride.

As for my final paragraph - Sylvia, Sue (even though from PA) and others from FL appear to know and understand FL law much better than original poster who feels all is hunky dorry!

As an aside - if you can spell honorable then I guess you don't need to understand what it means.

Reply by jba/fl on 2/18/09 2:08pm
Msg #277970

Correction: If you can't spell honorable n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 2/18/09 11:41am
Msg #277917

Who has the biggest error here?

Did you, in your ss capacity, inform that there would be deductions, a "cost to cure", should she make mistakes? If so, well, the shoe fits.

If not, your error in not disclosing. As Kevin/Ct pointed out in another post today, one cannot change the rules after the game begins.

Also, did the notary in question return to the borrower to have the document resigned? Did she use the new date of the new signing, or did she just stamp the old ack. and was done with it? Here's where the big error comes into play: Florida law does not allow one to just stamp and be on their way. It must go back to the original signer, be signed and notarized with the new date. Again, who has the biggest error here?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/18/09 12:49pm
Msg #277940

I'm confused... you think she's being dishonest, but you're asking her to complete a blank acknowledgment without attaching it?

Granted, she made a BIG mistake and should fix the problem herself, but you're not helping any by asking her to do something, which... in my opinion... is even worse than missing a notarial certificate or a seal placement.

Let me ask... did she fill out the notarial block but just forget to put her seal on it? Or did she completely miss the block?

The TC's solution was probably the best one in this case. It would probably cost BOTH you and the notary in this case, but the best solution is to just get it done ethically and argue about payment later. Of course, payment issues wouldn't happen if your confirmation of the assignment indicated the fees and possible deductions.

But honestly... your solution for the blank cert is NOT a good one. I know a lot of TCs, SSs and notaries feel differently... but I would NEVER send a loose acknowledgment without attaching it to the document myself. Never. There's just too much potential for fraud and I wouldn't risk my commission for it... and if this is a CA notary... you're possibly breaking the law just by asking her to do such a thing.

IN the end... yeah... if this notary missed an essential part of her job, I'd be cautious about hiring her again.

Reply by PAW on 2/18/09 1:39pm
Msg #277960

>>> I offered another solution. I provided an acknowledgment as an attachment. That way I would "email" the blank document to the notary, have her sign and notarize it and "ship" it to the lender in California. This would reduce the "cost to cure" by reducing the shipping to "one way" rather than both. <<<

What you are asking her to do is in violation of FL statutes. Even what the TC suggested is incorrect. Once a document has been signed, it cannot be altered in any way. A completely new notarization, with the original document and in the presence of the signer, would have to be completed. FSA 117.107(3), 117.107(7), 117.107(8), 117.107(9) and 117.107(10)

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/18/09 2:17pm
Msg #277971

ok.. you are way off base. I am a Signing Service directly associated with a title agent and attorney.. and am located in Florida and provide some 150 closings per months to Florida Signing agents. Given my orignal question did not pertain to the legallity of the action, but rather that fact that she "left her stamp off of a document", I did not explain fully, what the documents is or go into a lot of detail about how it was cured as it had no bearing on whether or not one left their stamp off of a document. I was trying to keep the statment short. My original post had absolutly nothing to do with "how we cured the mistake" ... only whether or not a notary should pay for their mistake.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/18/09 2:27pm
Msg #277974

Way off base??

No, you are way off base. Yes your original post was regarding whether a notary should pay for their mistake. However you followed it up with a post regarding the illegal act you had expected the notary to perform. You did not have to explain fully what the document is or go into detail about it. The document has no bearing on the fact that you asked a notary to perform an illegal act in FL.

Incidentally, why are you listed in NotRot as a mobile notary signing agent?? You are no longer a notary. Your commission expired last year. Why don't you list your company (The Closing Source) in Signing Central instead of being listed as a signing agent?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/18/09 2:27pm
Msg #277975

Way off base??

No, you are way off base. Yes your original post was regarding whether a notary should pay for their mistake. However you followed it up with a post regarding the illegal act you had expected the notary to perform. You did not have to explain fully what the document is or go into detail about it. The document has no bearing on the fact that you asked a notary to perform an illegal act in FL.

Incidentally, why are you listed in NotRot as a mobile notary signing agent?? You are no longer a notary. Your commission expired last year. Why don't you list your company (The Closing Source) in Signing Central instead of being listed as a signing agent?

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/18/09 2:54pm
Msg #277984

Re: Way off base??

Sylvia.. why are you concerned with my notary? I am a 22 year vetran of the mortgage business and hire Signing Agents with 5 plus years experiance to close my loans, which total 150+ monthly in Florida alone. If you are concerned that I am doing something incorrectly, please let me know what area's you cover and I will make sure not to call on you.

I would assume that a Notary with over 5 years signing experiance would know what to notarize and what not to notarize. In addition, our title staff and on legal advisors would advise if anything being done was incorrect or unethical. You were not privey to the process used to "cure" the mistake made by the notary mentioned in my original post. I was making a point that a "less expensive method" of solving the problem had been approved by our title agent and attorney, and the signing agent felt she should not have to "pay" for her mistake. Nothing more...... After I receive my medical release and reinstate my notary, I will make sure and notify you first.

Reply by Derrick/MT on 2/18/09 3:02pm
Msg #277989

Re: Way off base??

Who cares what your title staff and legal advisors say. It is the notary that will take the fall not them. From what I understand from what Sylvia said it is an illegal act. Is your legal adivisor going to defend the notary (I doubt it)?

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/18/09 3:05pm
Msg #277992

Re: Way off base??

Now this is just getting silly! The original post has nothing to do with this topic. Really, I appreciate everyones "opinion". My orignal question was answered, and sincerely appreciate those who took the time to answer it.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/18/09 3:20pm
Msg #277997

Re: Way off base??

"I would assume that a Notary with over 5 years signing experiance would know what to notarize and what not to notarize"

You know what assuming does?

I am also a certified notary instructor. I taught those classes that notaries have to complete to obtain their commission in Florida.
I had notaries in my classes who were already notaries but wanted a"refresher"
I was appalled at some who had been notaries for over 10 years and didn't know the notary laws.
So, never assume that because someone has been a notary over 5 years that they know what they are doing.

The "less expensive method" you mentioned in your previous post was illegal! The notary had not put her seal on the document, therefore it was not notarized and the ONLY way to correct that error was for the notary to go back out with the document and have the signer acknowledge they signed it, in her presence, and then put her seal on it. Any other way is not acceptable per Florida notary laws.

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/18/09 2:54pm
Msg #277985

Re: Way off base??

Sylvia.. why are you concerned with my notary? I am a 22 year vetran of the mortgage business and hire Signing Agents with 5 plus years experiance to close my loans, which total 150+ monthly in Florida alone. If you are concerned that I am doing something incorrectly, please let me know what area's you cover and I will make sure not to call on you.

I would assume that a Notary with over 5 years signing experiance would know what to notarize and what not to notarize. In addition, our title staff and on legal advisors would advise if anything being done was incorrect or unethical. You were not privey to the process used to "cure" the mistake made by the notary mentioned in my original post. I was making a point that a "less expensive method" of solving the problem had been approved by our title agent and attorney, and the signing agent felt she should not have to "pay" for her mistake. Nothing more...... After I receive my medical release and reinstate my notary, I will make sure and notify you first.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/18/09 3:04pm
Msg #277990

Re: Way off base??

"I would assume that a Notary with over 5 years signing experiance would know what to notarize and what not to notarize."

And I would assume that a (former) notary with 22 years experience in the mortgage business would know that you can't just send a blank acknowledgment to a FL notary to correct an error. I've known that for years and I'm not even a FL notary.

You're no better than the notary you're complaining about. In fact, you're actually worse, hers was simply a mistake, you're intentionally ignoring the laws of your state and just passing the buck for the decision to the legal department.

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/18/09 3:07pm
Msg #277993

Re: Way off base??

Again.. this is just getting funny... Thank you for your advice. I will take it to heart and proceed with caution.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 2/18/09 3:04pm
Msg #277991

"I will make sure not to call on you. "

ROFL

Sylvia has one of the best signing agencies I have worked for.
Lucky lady doesn't do signing appointments anymore, she has reached a pinnacle
where she doesn't "have to" anymore. And....she pays whether the loan funds or not.
I'd say her success is one you would want to emulate.

I'd work for Sylvia and listen to her advice ANY day of the week.

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/18/09 3:09pm
Msg #277994

Re: "I will make sure not to call on you. "

Thats good to know. Thank you again. I appreciate your help. I also pay the notary whether or not the loan closes, and I also have a very solid business, but I sincerely appreciate your help. I am sure Sylvia is a fine SS, and wish no one ill will. This post just got way off track.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/18/09 3:25pm
Msg #277998

Re: Way off base??

"If you are concerned that I am doing something incorrectly, please let me know what area's you cover and I will make sure not to call on you"

There is a difference between doing something incorrectly and doing something illegally.

No need to worry about calling on me, I have owned my own signing agency for 6 years, and am very successful with it. And I make sure all my signing agents follow notary laws to the letter!

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/18/09 3:40pm
Msg #278001

Re: Way off base??

You are very lucky and I wish much continued success! Have a wonderful evening.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/18/09 4:11pm
Msg #278006

Re: Way off base??

From your PM to me:

" If my legal department and the notary agree that the solution (which was not disclosed in my post) was both legal and ethical.. I am most certainly satisfied with that"

The "solution" was mentioned in your post. Whether your legal dept and notary agree that it was legal and ethical is irrelevant. The solution you mentioned in your post is illegal as it has been pointed out. But if you are satisfied with illegal practices the State of Florida probably wouldn't be. Just to "refresh" your memory your post stated:

"The lender wanted to "ship" the original and have it "shipped" back. I offered another solution. I provided an acknowledgment as an attachment. That way I would "email" the blank document to the notary, have her sign and notarize it and "ship" it to the lender in California."

What the lender wanted to do was the correct way to handle it. Your solution was illegal.
Nuff said!

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/18/09 4:15pm
Msg #278008

Re: Way off base??

Well I guess that will teach me to jump into the shark tank!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/18/09 2:28pm
Msg #277976

Janie, I think you're missing our point...and the FL notaries here are telling you the truth. I think it's pretty clear that we all think the notary should fix her own mistakes at her own expense... but within the parameters of your agreement.

You're the one who suggested sending a loose cert as a means of fixing it... and perhaps you shouldn't have mentioned it as it wasn't directly related to your question --- but you did, and we're all telling you... that as a Signing Service... you should NEVER suggest that to a notary.

Listen to Slyvia and Paul on this one for the future. They know what they're talking about.

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/18/09 2:42pm
Msg #277980

Thank you, I will listen to "any" advice that is issued with the intent of being kind and of service... rather than an attack. And again, I did not fully explain how the fix was accomplished, because it was not the point of my question. But our title agents and staff attorneys were comfortable with the fix, as was the notary. It was subtracting the fee from her pay that was the problem.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/18/09 2:53pm
Msg #277983

"....our title agents and staff attorneys were comfortable with the fix, as was the notary..."

That's what scares me. Just because you're all "comfortable" with a fix... doesn't mean you're complying with the law. That's a BIG distinction a lot of people don't seem to understand.

Even if it isn't a recorded document, it is still a legally binding one in some respect, and if that document ever becomes part of litigation in some form in the future, the process by which it was notarized could be questioned... and then you're risking more than just $24 for shipping.

Notaries are public servants and need to answer to the public and have taken an oath (usually) to uphold the law. Breaking the law should never be "comfortable" -- even if a lawyer tells you so. Many of them are called "lie-yers" for a reason.

Reply by CaliNotary on 2/18/09 3:00pm
Msg #277987

""....our title agents and staff attorneys were comfortable with the fix, as was the notary..."

That's what scares me. Just because you're all "comfortable" with a fix... doesn't mean you're complying with the law. That's a BIG distinction a lot of people don't seem to understand. "

I was thinking the exact same thing. I love how in one post she says "To be honest I consider it a measure of common sense and integrity", but in all the other posts she's just blowing off the illegality of having a FL notary complete an acknowledgment days after the document was signed. Nothing vague about it, but since it didn't fit in with what was convenient for everybody, it's just brushed off as unimportant. So much for integrity.

Reply by sue_pa on 2/18/09 3:45pm
Msg #278002

YOU opened the second door

...My original post had absolutly nothing to do with "how we cured the mistake" ... only whether or not a notary should pay for their mistake. ...

your intent was to ask abuot payment ... basically everyone feels if they make an error they will fix it on their dime.

In addition to asking about payment, you told us HOW you wanted the error fixed. That's why so many responded to that part of your little scenario. It's not our fault you didn't want us to know how it was fixed (and it certainly appears from the facts given that the fix wasn't proper) and don't feel we should have responded to that. If you wouldn't have brought "the fix" up, we couldn't have responded.

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/18/09 4:11pm
Msg #278007

Re: YOU opened the second door

It was assumed that I provided all of the information regarding the fix.. which I did not, as that was not the original topic of my post, nor was it my question. She was not asked to do anything illegal or unethical and that is all that will be said on that subject.

The only reason I mentioned it period, was to explain that I had offered a less expensive, yet legal and acceptable fix... meaning "less expensive for her". Not us. I did not expect for each word of my post to be picked apart and advice dispensed on a matter I was not seeking advice for. I have never used this message board and again (my mistake) assumed that all would be professional, non-judgemental and simply respond to my question.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/18/09 4:45pm
Msg #278010

Re: YOU opened the second door

"She was not asked to do anything illegal"

If your solution was to send her a blank acknowledgment to sign, stamp and return to you - um yes, she WAS asked to do exactly that - by you - and that's wrong...why can't you see that??

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/18/09 4:57pm
Msg #278013

Re: YOU opened the second door

It wasn't blank.. again, that wasn't the question. The problem was not the fix to the error, but rather that she wanted to be paid for "making the error". All is well. Have a nice evening

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/18/09 5:04pm
Msg #278014

Re: YOU opened the second door

By the way - just in case you think we're just giving you a hard time - page 29 of the manual..

"Once you “complete” the notarization and return it to the document signer, you may not amend your certificate. For instance, if you forgot to state the type of identification or affix your seal and the document is returned to you on a later date by the receiving party, you may not correct your error. The document will require re-notarization, including the presence of the document signer."

You have a nice evening too Janie..

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/18/09 5:42pm
Msg #278021

Re: YOU opened the second door

"It wasn't blank.. again, that wasn't the question"

Your previous post!!!

"That way I would "email" the blank document to the notary, have her sign and notarize it and "ship" it to the lender in California"

Reply by jba/fl on 2/18/09 5:20pm
Msg #278017

Re: YOU opened the second door

"I have never used this message board "

Wrong again Janie - 5-13-08 posted msg #'s 247391,247394 and 247393
on 5-22-08 posted #'s 248392, 348377, 248394
on 7-23-08 posted #256437 and on 8-8-08 posted #259271.

All postings showed you were from AK although you did state you were in FL and you also stated you were a signing service.

Having Googled you today, I (and others) found you had been active here in the past.

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/19/09 11:50am
Msg #278090

Re: YOU opened the second door

Your getting petty.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 2/18/09 9:44pm
Msg #278042

Re: YOU opened the second door

"It was assumed that I provided all of the information regarding the fix.. which I did not, as that was not the original topic of my post, nor was it my question. She was not asked to do anything illegal or unethical and that is all that will be said on that subject."

This is beyond stupid... the only LEGAL fix is for her to get the original document back and notarize again. Anything else is clearly a violation of FL notary law. A roomful of lawyers saying they're "comfortable" with the violation doesn't change the law - you and the notary you hired are still required ti comply.

What part of that are you having a problem understanding???

Reply by jba/fl on 2/18/09 9:49pm
Msg #278043

Re: YOU opened the second door

Now Mike, you are being a shark - LOL!

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/19/09 11:56am
Msg #278091

Re: YOU opened the second door

I actually took a communications class that dealt with how information gets distorted, going from one person to the next and so on. It's actually pretty funny... that is what has happened here. None of what you are debating has "anything" to do with my orignal post.. so fuuny.

But seriously, thank you for the information anyhow. Believe me, I get every word you are saying.... it's just that it had nothing to do with my question. Right or wrong.. it was unsolicated information, but appreciated none the less.

Thank you again..

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/19/09 12:04am
Msg #278050

Re: YOU opened the second door

"I did not expect for each word of my post to be picked apart and advice dispensed on a matter I was not seeking advice for. I have never used this message board and again (my mistake) assumed that all would be professional, non-judgemental and simply respond to my question."

Here's the problem - and my opinion for the reason everyone jumped in: once something is posted here, it is there for posterity (or at least a good long while...) and can potentially be an influence on someone who doesn't know any better. There is nothing that will cause a feeding frenzy here faster than illegal, unethical or just plain wrong or misleading information being posted. The vast majority of those of us who post here really care about our chosen profession. And over the years, there's likely been hundreds of newbies and "easily influenced" folks reading here (especially when you figure in all those who read but don't post).

I see two lessons here... First is to be careful of what we post. And second, we can all make mistakes. What separates out the professionals (which gets back to your original issue about pay, too), is how we react once the mistake is made. Some times the best thing to do is own up and move on. You've never once, that I saw, recanted your original statement (about the method of correction) in any way or even implied that you misspoke or might have been in error (regardless of how you did end up getting the situation fixed). Had you done so instead of being on the defensive, I'd bet this thread would have been a whole heck of a lot shorter.

Yeah, we can get rough here, especially when it comes to proper procedures and following the law - whatever it might be for where we each do business.

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/19/09 12:04pm
Msg #278094

Re: YOU opened the second door

You are right. Thank you! I should have not mentioned anything about "the fix". Again, I did not provide all the info and only mentioned it in an effort to establish the fact that I was eager and willing to work with the needs of the notary. My mistake.

However, the continued debate was based on assumption on the part of bloggers. Everyone assumed that I had posted all of the information about the fix... which I did not .. because that was not my question. Then it just got carried to far. But.. oh well.. lesson learned. And believe me, I have learned alot.

I was very suprised to find that so many of the bloggers were just out and out mean and nasty. If you go back through the entire post, you will find "few" answers to my original question, but all were quick to condem. I have learned alot about were to get my information. And honesty, I do appreciate what you have told me.

Thank you again.. JK

Reply by sue_pa on 2/18/09 11:37am
Msg #277914

I'm not addressing the fee issue ... see recent thread below on what we deal with on a DAILY basis ... with no fee adjustments.

In PA, your notary could not have sent in the ack - she would have had to take the original document back to the signers, have them reacknowledge to her their signatures and notarize for THAT day, not the original date. I am wondering how many states really allow acks to be sent in after the fact as so many feel is the case. "Reacknowledging" whether or not due to error, is not permitted here.

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/18/09 11:53am
Msg #277921

The acknowledgment specifically addresses it's purpose and the document is being attached to. The original document is not a recorded document, nor was it missing a signature.. it was missing her stamp. It is acceptable. That was not my concern.

I believe it is "dishonerable" to assume that others are going to pay for the mistakes you make. As was mentined by another poster.. it "was not " addressed up front. To be honest I consider it a measure of common sense and integrity, but none the less, sent her the $24.00 for the shipping fee regardless. I just wanted to know if it is common practice "not" to expect to pay for your errors, because I would expect to pay for mine.

Reply by sue_pa on 2/18/09 11:57am
Msg #277924

... It is acceptable. That was not my concern. ...

As I said, in PA it would not be acceptable. What in the world would recordable or a missing signature have to do with what I said?

"Not your concern"? oh my ...

Reply by jba/fl on 2/18/09 12:11pm
Msg #277933

"To be honest I consider it a measure of common sense and integrity..."

I'll skip the first phrase and address the remainder. You are dealing with people. People in general do not have the common sense to come out of the rain let alone guess at what is another's policy in event of...(whatever calamity). You must spell it out for them. As for integrity...about the guessing game? I did make a mistake in the past and the TC just ignored it and paid the freight, but I did ask as I had heard of these charge backs. Was I acting with integrity and honesty? I was hoping against hope they would pick up the bill, which they did, but my intent was not exactly pure when I asked about it. Anyway, they didn't send me the package with those dire warnings of deductions for this, that and the other, it's 6 years ago when things were really jumping and no one really cared as much so I can't worry about it any more.

I guess I'm trying to say - you have to spell out your terms. Not just with who hires you, but who you hire. Sometimes it is just easier to turn the whole signing over to them and let them stand or fall with the chips.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/18/09 6:30pm
Msg #278023

I have to disagree on this one. (I'm not going to get into the corrections issues, as those are state specific and have been addressed, but I would never send a loose ack, either.)

One of the things that drive me to distraction are those confirmations that have long, detailed lists itemizing all the responsibilities and consequences should this or that occur. It's virtually impossible to list every possible potential error and resulting consequence (and every time a new issue surfaces, the lists get longer) and I've yet to read one that didn't sound condescending and negative.

I'm with the school that says I guarantee my work and will fix any errors at my own expense. I'd also love it if the tc agreed to pay and certainly wouldn't argue if they offered, but I wouldn't get upset if my pay was docked for a glaring omission like missing a stamp. jmho.

Reply by Mike Cooper on 2/18/09 9:39pm
Msg #278040

i agree janet. u error you fix. its business, be a pro and just do it.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 2/19/09 6:59am
Msg #278056

Mike, I'm Digging Back Into My Memory Banks...

...which is always a dangerous thing to do, but didn't you frequent the old NASA message forum back in 2001? If not, please just ignore my question.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/19/09 7:05am
Msg #278058

Re: Mike, I'm Digging Back Into My Memory Banks...

I believe you are right, Dennis. Mike Cooper (of TN) was a frequent poster on the old NASA board. If it is the same Mike Cooper, I am happy to see him resurface here

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 2/19/09 7:45am
Msg #278062

Your reasoning is confused. There is a difference between modifying the terms of the engagement and the notary's performing the terms to which he/she has agreed. You might not like the " long, detailed lists itemizing all the responsibilities", but you are the drafter of the confirmation setting your requirements. The notary is accountable to both the state law and such requirements as may be contained in your confirmation. If the notary has performed in accordance with state law and the terms contained in your confirmation...he/she should be paid in full. If you have failed to list some requirement in excess of this...that is your problem.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 2/18/09 1:34pm
Msg #277958

"The acknowledgment specifically addresses it's purpose and the document is being attached to. The original document is not a recorded document, nor was it missing a signature.. it was missing her stamp. It is acceptable."

What!!!! This may be acceptable to you, but if you are hiring notaries in Florida you better make sure of Florida notary laws and follow them, whether it is inconvenient or costly.

You can NEVER have a notary seal a document without the signer being in the notary's presence. You say it was just missing her stamp! If it was missing her stamp then legally it was never notarized. The notary should go back out (at his/her own expense) and have the signer acknowledge they signed the document and then notarize the signature.
Does not matter if it is a recorded document or not.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 2/18/09 11:59am
Msg #277926

The notary is responsible for the costs.

The notary that made the error is responsible for the costs to correct the error, period. If the notary, or any business person for that matter, does not want to take responsibility for errors, then they should not be in business. If the person that hires the notary has to fix the error for the notary, then the money should be deducted from the fee.

I make is simple for those who hire me. If I make an error, then I will fix it at my own expense. Period. Now the method of the fix I will not go into here. Notary law as written in California is open for a lot of interpretation and that's why I have an attorney to consult. Bottom line is that in 2000+ loans, I have made a couple of errors and have always been able to fix it legally according to the statutes in a manner that is acceptable to everyone involved at my expense.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 2/18/09 12:05pm
Msg #277930

I should add that ....

this is an implied warranty that is given by the person being hired. I have had a couple of small claims cases where the person I was holding responsible claimed "He didn't tell me that I would have to pay extra if I made an error". Both times the judge ruled that any work you are hired to do is covered by an "Implied Warranty", which is an unwritten understanding that you give when you take the job that you will do the job correctly.

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/18/09 1:02pm
Msg #277943

Re: I should add that ....

FYI.... I have sense changed my policy and include a disclosure in all my closing packages that clearly outline my expectations, if the notary accepts the assignment. In the case I have been discussing, I "did" pay the notary even though there most definatly "is" an implied warranty in our work. Thank you every one for your input... it has been most helpful.

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/18/09 12:56pm
Msg #277941

Re: The notary is responsible for the costs.

Thank you Glenn! For an honest and honerable answer. I understand the method to cure said error, can vary per state, however was concerned that my expectation for the notary to pay for her own error, was out of line, even though I felt it was not.

Reply by C. Wayne Moore on 2/18/09 2:33pm
Msg #277978

My error my dime! n/m

Reply by Janie Kearns on 2/18/09 2:56pm
Msg #277986

Re: My error my dime!

That's what I was thinking.... Thank you Wayne.

Reply by MichiganAl on 2/18/09 6:11pm
Msg #278022

Yep, that's my bottom line. My error, my dime. n/m