Posted by ZoeyOR on 1/12/09 10:38pm
Msg #274317

Help

I arrived to a signing this evening and first off, one of the borrowers had an expired ID- almost years. Secondly, the other borrower did not have JR on any docs but his license and ss card both used JR. I called the SS and the loan officer (and the NNA) and no one answered. I told the borrowers that I was uncomfortable with proceeding until I had some answers to my questions. After waiting 30 mins. for a return call, I left with the intention of returning for a second signing.
As I drove home, the loan agents called me and ripped me a new one and told me I had no business aborting the signing. He suggested that iI go out tomorrow and backdate. I have never had such nasty treatment and my signings are almost always smooth. What could I have done differently? Thanks.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/12/09 11:37pm
Msg #274323

I don't know what your state ID requirements are, but YOU need to. Assuming you were within your rights to deny the ID offered and were following the law, the LO has no business telling you what ID you can accept or when and how you notarize or not. That is your call as the notary, since it is your stamp that goes on that page and no one else's. And backdating is a definite no-no.

Having said that, I wouldn't have worried about the JR not being on the documents. If it was the other way around, i.e. it was on the documents, but not on the ID, that would be a different story. To me, it's the same as if the person had a middle name that was on the ID but not on the docs. What does your state say about expired ID? In CA, we can only use it if it's been issued within the last five years.

What you could have done differently again, depends on OR notary law and I'll leave that to someone from there. The only thing I can think to say on that, again, is to know your notary law backwards and forwards. You should know it well enough so that there is no need to ask anyone. (And I would NEVER depend on the NNA for an answer like that -- or much of anything else, for that matter!) The only call I would make in a situation like that would be to my client, and possibly to LO to let them know what was going on, if I had their contact information. In no way would I let them intimidate me or try to tell me if I could or could not accept a particular ID. That's always the notary's call.

Reply by Steven Pearce on 1/12/09 11:55pm
Msg #274324

Zoey, Chapter 6, section 2 of the Oregon Notary Public guide

page 22, Identification documents.
It's pretty cut & dried with only three stipulations for ID and the preamble to that section is;
"The following types of identification may be used to positively identify a client, if they are CURRENT"

The whole 'jr' thing would have been okay, they can oversign, not undersign, but the law for Oregon doesn't mess around with outdated ID. You are in the right.

- when I do confirmation calls, I remind them to have a current valid picture ID ready.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/13/09 12:04am
Msg #274326

Well, first off... don't backdate.

The expired ID could be handled with credible witnesses (depending on how Oregon law works). If you knew ahead of time that it was expired, you could have asked them to find some witnesses to be present for that person. But don't quote me on that... I don't know how credible witnesses work in OR.

For the other person? I'm with the others. If the docs say, "John F. Doe", and the ID says, "John Franklin Doe, Jr. -- then where's the problem? The ID can contain more information than the docs, but the docs shouldn't contain more than the ID. In other words, if the docs said, "John Frank Doe, Jr." and the ID said, "John Franklin Joe, Jr." -- that's when you've got a problem.

Finally, never trust the NNA for advice. I mean, it can't hurt to call.... though it will probably be a waste of time and should never be your only source of information.


But overall, it sounds like you did the right thing. Just don't let them bully you into going back there and backdating. And also, before you go... call them and verify that they have current ID. Make them pull it out and check if you have to. One way to do this is to ask, "Can you pull out your ID and tell me when it expires?"

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/13/09 12:06am
Msg #274327

whoops...

I said:

===
In other words, if the docs said, "John Frank Doe, Jr." and the ID said, "John Franklin Joe, Jr." -- that's when you've got a problem.
===

I meant that the other way around:

In other words, if the docs said, "John Franklin Doe, Jr." and the ID said, "John Frank Joe, Jr." -- that's when you've got a problem.

Reply by Steven Pearce on 1/13/09 12:12am
Msg #274328

Re: whoops...

Yeppers, that is correct.

Also, Oregon does not allow expired ID and the credible witness has to be personally known by the Notary.
If the LO tries to flame Zoey again, let them know the ID is the issue.

Reply by Steven Pearce on 1/13/09 12:14am
Msg #274329

...geez, the EXPIRED ID is the issue, it's late, need sleep n/m

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/13/09 1:12am
Msg #274331

Re: ...geez, the EXPIRED ID is the issue, it's late, need sleep

I know the feeling. No sleep!

Thanks for explaining your Credible witness rule, too.

Reply by ZoeyOR on 1/13/09 12:19am
Msg #274330

Re: whoops...

Thanks Steve, borrower said she would get her ID renewed tomorrow.
Would you go out and work for the flame thrower again? Do you usually get paid for incomplete signings?

Reply by Steven Pearce on 1/13/09 8:41am
Msg #274333

That depends on who is at fault

If it's something that is in my control, no, but that has never happened to me (knock on wood).
If it's due to a foul on the BO or the LO, then you should at least get a trip and print fee as the dated documents are now worthless.

Never ever backdate anything. The BO & LO can put whatever date they want on anything as far as I'm concerned, Anything EXCEPT what I notarize and sign. My job is to get the signing done with proper ID and notarizations, the rest is none of my business.

Don't expect to hear from the flamethrower again though, let them put somebody else's commission at risk. If they insist on you backdating your notarizations, report them to the SOS using the 'Fraud' link on the website.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 1/13/09 11:22am
Msg #274338

Have you looked at pages 21 & 22 of the Oregon guide?

Under the section identification documents there are a number of other id's that can be used and I'd be surprised that they didn't have any of these. Gosh you can even use credit cards in Oregon and I'd be real surprised if they didn't own one or four of these.

Reply by Ocean Pacific Notary Services, Inc. on 1/13/09 11:33am
Msg #274339

Re: Have you looked at pages 21 & 22 of the Oregon guide?

Thank you - that little handbook comes in really handy when it is read.

Reply by Steven Pearce on 1/13/09 2:34pm
Msg #274364

Re: Have you looked at pages 21 & 22 of the Oregon guide?

Crazy isn't it? Having been the victim of credit card fraud, I really hesitate to verify identity based on the appearance of a credit card, especially when they sign it before they hand it to you. I usually manage to get a passport or military ID out of the BO.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 1/13/09 3:31pm
Msg #274368

If credit cards are used for ID, must use two. Strange,

but true.

We can't use passoort only for primary ID, unless it has physical description. Weird.

Reply by Todd/OH on 1/13/09 12:36pm
Msg #274343

Not knowing Oregon law, I would have an issue with the expired ID. This happened to me last year. Wife was getting a refi with cash out and hubby was living with a girlfriend. We rounded him up only to discover that his ID had been expired for a year. I told them to call me when he got a new one. I got the call that afternoon.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 1/13/09 6:49pm
Msg #274393

Every state law is different, so you can only go by what your state says. I happen to be in a state that leaves the issue of appropriate ID to the notary's discretion, so it becomes a judgment call. As far as expired IDs are concerned, I will accept them if the person sitting in front of me matches the person on the ID - it's not like the ID fairy came by the day the ID expired and changed them into someone else....

As far as the LO who gave you a hard time - the guy's a moron, and you're better off not working with him. Never let anyone tell you what it is you're supposed to do as a notary, and NEVER backdate - you should already know that, and should be able to stand your ground because the law is on your side.

I had one situation where I refused to accept an ID (foreign passport that had expired years ago and the photo didn't even match the person sitting in front of me). The signing was at the broker's office; the manager came in, looked at the ID, and told me he would authorize its use. I politely told him that he doesn't get to make that call. Signing didn't happen and I wasn't able to collect a print or travel fee, but I also didn't compromise my position as a notary...