Posted by Barb25 on 1/13/09 3:47pm
Msg #274371

NotaryLaw.com's answer about Jurats by POA. Will it ever end

NotaryLaw.com asked me for the Statute that says POA can not sign affidavit for principal. I sent the following (as I also posted here):

From the Florida Statute Section 709.08. See below subsection 7(b)2.

Attorney in fact may not make an affidavit as the the personal knowledge of the principal.

Here is their answer to me hot off the Press. I hope to hear your comments. Read on and thanks.

Good afternoon Barbara,

Thank you for the quick reply. There are no statutes within the Notary Chapter that prohibits a notary from taking an oath from a power of attorney. The person is simply putting himself under oath that the information contained in the document is true and accurate. This is true for every state. If you have further questions or would like a more in-depth explanation, please call us at 800-722-8708.

Hope this helps!

Customer Service,
Notary Law Institute
PO Box 1932
Orem, UT 84057
(P) 800-722-8708
(F) 801-296-6154

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/13/09 4:04pm
Msg #274373

"There are no statutes within the Notary Chapter that prohibits a notary from taking an oath from a power of attorney" That's right - because the notary is GIVING the oath to the ATTORNEY-IN-FACT...

"The person is simply putting himself under oath that the information contained in the document is true and accurate" - exactly - the PERSON knows the facts to be true - but he can't swear to them on behalf of someone else, and you have the statute to prove that..

Not real impressed with Notary Law Institute in this matter.

Reply by Becca_FL on 1/13/09 4:42pm
Msg #274375

My email to the SOS bounced. Is Heather Slager still there?

I sent it to the email address I have used to communicate with Heather Slager before.

[e-mail address]

Reply by Barb25 on 1/13/09 6:24pm
Msg #274389

Re: My email to the SOS bounced. Is Heather Slager still there?

Is this of any help? (particularly the phone number)

Executive Office of the Governor - Notary Section provides the following manuals:

Laws Related to Florida Notaries Public
Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries
Performing Marriage Ceremonies
For any questions concerning these manuals, or detailed legal questions, please telephone the Governor's Notary Section at (850) 922-6400, ext. 8.

Reply by PAW on 1/13/09 9:38pm
Msg #274418

My email to the SOS bounces too. n/m

Reply by Maureen_nh on 1/13/09 5:49pm
Msg #274383

You guys got me wondering so I e-mailed my SOS and got a NO for an answer.
I had noticed that on a couple of loans that I did with POA'S, that were no jurats--all acks.

Reply by Barb25 on 1/13/09 6:26pm
Msg #274390

Well I responded to the subject email. We shall see. To me what they said makes no sense at all. However, they volunteered a more in-depth explanation. So I asked for it but, by email and not a phone call that cannot be revisited. This topic sure is a burnout. I need a glass of wine.

Reply by Leon_CO on 1/13/09 6:59pm
Msg #274396

I spoke with the SOS in my state

I don't know about other states, but it's against Colorado notary law for someone to take an oath for someone using a power of attorney.

I had a situation a few months ago in which a signing service wanted me to go back out and get an affidavit notarized. The wife was signing with a power of attorney. I told them I couldn't. The title company got involved. I told them the same thing. They kept insisting that I had to do it. I kept insisting that I couldn't, until finally I got the secretary of state involved.

I spoke to someone in the notary division at the Colorado secretary of state's office regarding the matter. She is in charge of all notary matters, teaches notary classes, etc. She's also the one who can revoke your commission if you screw up. She backed me 100%. She said that if I had any problems to have them call her. They never called her, and I never heard about it again.

What the woman in the Colorado notary division recommended was that the lender substitute the jurat with an acknowledgement. That would mean getting all of this done before the closing, of course. That is the only way someone can sign for someone else using a power of attorney. It has to be with an acknowledgement. But under no circumstances can they take an oath for someone else.

Like I said, this is Colorado notary law. And I would recommend that anyone in a similar situation do the same thing -- contact someone in your secretary of state's notary division. Because if you need someone to back you up, those are the people you want backing you. Not someone in a different state than you -- no matter how knowledgeable they may be.

Good luck.

Reply by LynnNC on 1/14/09 12:40pm
Msg #274447

Leon...

...you wrote, "I had a situation a few months ago in which a signing service wanted me to go back out and get an affidavit notarized. The wife was signing with a power of attorney. I told them I couldn't. "

Why couldn't you notarize an affidavit? A jurat is the problem with a POA.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/13/09 7:56pm
Msg #274407

Barb - I have to ask....why??

You have the FL statute 709.08 Sec. 7()b)2. - why are you consulting a notary law institute located in UT when you have your own state's law right in your hand? IMO no matter WHAT they say, I'd still abide by FL statute - "...an attorney in fact may not make any affidavit as to the personal knowledge of the principal"...

To me, it's done - you have your answer...will it ever end? - only as soon as you let it. MHO

Reply by Barb25 on 1/14/09 6:55am
Msg #274432

Re: Barb - I have to ask....why??

That is a good question, Linda. Actually I found them through google and I asked them my original question (with my personal situation). Their name "NotaryLaw" and website implied an end-all knowledge. (As you can see I haven't been able to find a member at notary rotary or anywhere else that has been directed to a sentence in paragraph in their state's notary handbook that clearly states that notary cannot notarize affidavit of aif). Anyhow. I hoped for an anwer. I got one but more inane than anything another organizatin who claims guru status ever gave out. NotaryLaw should not be permitted to us the word law in their name, IMHO.

I still wish that Florida (at least) would place the "cannot" with reference to jurats/poa into their list of Don'ts as they have the other issues such as appearances and dating acks.

While I have faith in the answers here and the statute referred to regarding limitations of POAs, I would like to be able forward the section in the handbook to the TC or Lender requesting aifs take the oath and me to notarize. I am rambling. sorry. You know, my attorney (and he is a good attorney) did not realize this limitation until I asked him and he researched it. If it were in the handbook we would not have to be detectives, just notaries.

This is long enough but below is just some of what I copied (that gave me the warm fuzzies) toward Notarylaw.com at first. I guess I am just a sucker for a good marketing line.

The Notary Law Institute is America's most respected and prestigious notary public training and notary supplies provider. Founded in 1991 and based in Orem, Utah we have trained over 150,000 notaries nationwide with 100% approval ratings.

Our mission is to provide the highest quality materials and services for our customers who want to become a notary that comply 100% with statutory and common law. In pursuit of this mission we will adhere to these values:

Excellence - We strive to become the most sought-after provider of notarial supplies and training materials.

Service - We endeavor to exceed the expectations of our customers in all aspects of their notarial needs.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 1/13/09 6:54pm
Msg #274394

This is scary.... how does a POA swear to the truth and accuracy of something they may have no knowledge of??

Reply by Lee/AR on 1/13/09 7:22pm
Msg #274400

Whether they do or don't 'have the knowledge'....with a POA, they are still stating it on someone else's behalf. If it's incorrect, who gets sued for perjury? Guess we'll just have to keep re-visiting Groundhog Day until we--and every state--gets it right, huh?

Reply by Susan Fischer on 1/13/09 10:34pm
Msg #274424

"This is true for every state." Not in Oregon.

Under ORS 194.505(5,6), OR SOS is clear: "An oath cannot be done on behalf of someone else, including a corporation."

"The person is simply putting himself under oath that the information contained in the document is true and accurate." Notary Law Institute

The POA is signing all docs for the principal. For instance, signing the Note is neither "simply" understanding the contents of the Note, nor agreeing to the terms of the Note. Signing the Note is actually just filling in for the principal; binding the principal, not the POA.

In Oregon, the POA could sign the jurat, but he would have to sign as himself, not as a POA. Only he can attest to the truth of the statement. The princiapal was not there.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 1/14/09 5:54am
Msg #274429

You're not citing Notarial statutes - hence their response

Like others, I think going anywhere BUT to your own SOS is just wasted effort. You're talking apples & oranges with the Notary Law Institute - the statute you cited is not part of the notarial statutes, and perhaps you're venturing into dangerous waters if you're going to try and interpret laws not meant for you to be interpreting within the scope of your notarial duties.

KISS - it is not for the notary, lacking specific notarial statutes or directives from their SOS, to interpret the legality, correctness or legal consequences of documents presented for notarization. Also - the act of a compliant notarization does not provide any document with arbitrary legality, truthfulness or correctness.

If John Doe presents himself to me with a POA and a document requiring a jurat, I will place John Doe under oath. It is John Doe who is legally held responsible for his duties as an AIF, it is John Doe who represents to me that he has the authority to perform the act he is performing as the AIF, it is John Doe who decides if he can swear to the truthfulness of the document under penalty of perjury, and as the notary I will fulfill my duties - until my SOS/notarial statutes spell it out otherwise.

It is NOT my duty to read or comprehend statutes outside my own notarial statutes - that is why we have attorneys. There are many, many other statutes that will relate back to the use of a POA - for cheap thrills, research the potential consequences of refusing to accept a legitimate POA, particularly should that refusal cause damages to the principal.

You know, there's a saying about how true freedom is found within the confines of your own boundaries.

Reply by Barb25 on 1/14/09 9:33am
Msg #274437

Re: You're not citing Notarial statutes - hence their response

It's a very strong argument and an excellent thought. I want to believe it and it makes sense because we are not required to prove their capacity or even if there is a POA. But I don't know. It still would be nice for the state(s) to clear it up and I don't know why they don't care to do so. All I know is that I hope I am not "losing money" for nothing. Thanks for your excellent comment.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 1/15/09 5:44am
Msg #274524

Re: You're not citing Notarial statutes - hence their response

I agree, Barb - it would be nice if the states cleared it up but I tend to think this is a very deliberate omission, not just an oversight. If (as it appears) there are one or two states that clearly define the POA/jurat issue - well, perhaps in time it will make its way through the other 48. My own guess is that they leave the issue alone because it carries consequences throughout a bazillion other areas of compiled laws. Meantime, all I can do is pour over chapter & verse of my state's Notary Public Act and use them as my boundary - bearing in mind that these laws are written with exacting deliberation as to each and every word used, and lots of important stuff is found in the Definitions section, too. =)