Posted by Shoshana Roller on 3/18/09 4:31pm
Msg #281206

Any Constitutional Law experts among us?

I had accepted a signing here in AZ. Along with the docs came an email from the title company that said that I was to use a raised notary seal where required. I called them and was told that some counties or states required a raised. seal. That was a new one to me.
Anyway, someone told me that in Article 4, Section 1 of the US constitution it actually states the notary must abide abide by their state's laws regarding notarization for an out of state document.
I

Reply by LynnNC on 3/18/09 4:49pm
Msg #281214

" in Article 4, Section 1 of the US constitution it actually states the notary must abide abide by their state's laws regarding notarization for an out of state document."

The Constitution states nothing about notaries, but it does say this in Article 4, Section1:

Article IV - The States
Section 1 - Each State to Honor all others

Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

Reply by jba/fl on 3/18/09 5:32pm
Msg #281223

Shoshana, if I didn't start at the top of the page, I would have understood you were referring to this post (I think anyway). Susie Fischer will know - she appears to be somewhat of an authority on constitutional law. She may be on later; not much during the day it seems.

But, really, my state honors your state's laws and procedures, and I'm very comfortable that your state honors my procedures as done by my state's laws.

whew - my state, your state, my state, your state, my state, your state: mouthful...LOL

Reply by BobbiCT on 3/18/09 6:11pm
Msg #281229

That would be me (sort of)

I often have to "pass the pdf" to one of the attorneys I work for when they get that "out of state call" from "some clerk who wants to argue law."

U.S. Constitution Article IV Sec. 2 .. Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the PUBLIC ACTS .. of every other state.

I keep a pdf of that section of the Constitution for email and faxing purposes. Of course, that still doesn't mean the recipient will understand that the notarization ACT of a notary public, who is a PUBLIC OFFICIAL commissioned by his/her state, is a PUBLIC ACT.

Trivial Pursuit Answer: Eastern US attorneys most often have to argue this with California "staff". Never have a problem with documents going to New York or Florida. Must be something in the California air

Reply by Shoshana Roller on 3/18/09 6:40pm
Msg #281245

Thanks, Bobbi! n/m

Reply by PAW on 3/18/09 8:13pm
Msg #281276

Re: That would be me (sort of)

>>> Trivial Pursuit Answer: Eastern US attorneys most often have to argue this with California "staff". Never have a problem with documents going to New York or Florida. Must be something in the California air <<<

I have a tendency to agree. It seems that any legal questions that I have forward either to our attorney or a staff attorney at the title company, especially with DOTs, mortgages and recording requirements, comes from California.

Reply by Sharon Taylor on 3/18/09 6:23pm
Msg #281230

The title company is flaky!

Here in TN, a law was passed a few years back that said all notaries had to switch to a stamp seal instead of an embossed seal upon renewal of their commissions. So for a while I could use either one, but once my commission was renewed, I could only use the stamp seal. Sounds like that title company needs to educate the county clerks in those counties or states they are dealing with that in at least one state you CANNOT use an embossed seal.

Reply by LynnNC on 3/18/09 6:25pm
Msg #281233

Re: The title company is flaky!

What do you do when on a mortgage/DOT there is no room for a stamp seal?

Reply by Shoshana Roller on 3/18/09 6:35pm
Msg #281241

You attach a loose acknowledgement.

On the signature page I add: "Loose AZ Acknowledgement attached.

Reply by Shoshana Roller on 3/18/09 6:39pm
Msg #281243

Re: The title company is flaky!

Back at the title company, I was told they actually go over the raised seal with Ink. Someone else told me that they were told to use carbon paper if they used an embosser.

Reply by Charles_Ca on 3/18/09 8:00pm
Msg #281272

A seal inker used to ink raised seals, you have to hunt for

one but they are available.

Reply by Lee/AR on 3/18/09 8:12pm
Msg #281275

Re: A seal inker used to ink raised seals, you have to hunt for

As needing a raised seal inked doesn't happen very often, you can just stick a finger on an inkpad and veeerrrry gently drag your finger across the seal. Now go wash your hands.

Reply by sue_pa on 3/18/09 8:27pm
Msg #281280

Re: A seal inker used to ink raised seals, you have to hunt for

our recorder rubs a #2 lead pencil across so it shows up after imaging.

I put my embosser in the bottom drawer the day PA said we didn't need to use it any longer (it's still optional) and I have never pulled it out since.

Reply by Mary Ellen Harvley on 5/4/09 12:14am
Msg #287189

Re: The title company is flaky! to Sharon Taylor

I once notarized the papers for a couple to legitimize the birth of a child they had before getting married. The child was born in and the marriage occurred in another state.

They had since moved here to TN. As you know, our rubber stamp seals can not be black ink.

Well, this other state kept sending the paperwork back saying it was not legimate because the seal was too large and not in black ink.

When they had me do (the 4th notary) I suggessted they write a letter explaining that they now live in Tn and to print the needed pages from the TN Notary Handbook and to research the Constitution and note anything they felt relevant to the other state.

They did and the paperwork was not returned that time.

Why do these state employees not bother to check what the other state's laws are before getting all bent out of shape?????

Reply by Susan Fischer on 3/18/09 9:22pm
Msg #281285

In Oregon, we can use a raised seal, BUT, only in ADDITION

to a black inked stamp.

Have to go by MY state's laws, not some other state's or some lender's idea of the 'law.' Full Faith and Credit Clause, or comity, is your Constitutional backup.

Reply by PAW on 3/19/09 8:10am
Msg #281331

Same for Florida

Domestically, I use the impression embosser on a few documents, e.g., Deeds, POAs and Wills, only to show the "original" document.

Internationally, I use the impression embosser on every document since some jurisdictions will only accept documents that have an embossed seal on it. (I don't use gold foil stickers anymore.)

The use of the embosser is always in conjunction with the black ink stamp, which is the only seal authorized for Florida notaries.

Reply by SharonMN on 3/19/09 1:23pm
Msg #281376

That's what state certification or apostille is for

If they really want to get crazy, they can require that your SOS certify your notary act, or ask for an apostille or US State Dept. certification which is the same thing except for foreign countries. Basically it's an additional document where the agency that appoints notaries certifies that you're a real notary from whatever state and that the notarization is a real notarization - because after all, how would some guy in Japan or whatever know what a certain state's notarization is supposed to look like or whether it's a fraud? Somebody could give him anything. My brother knew a guy in college that used a fake Saudi passport to get into bars. Nobody knew what a Saudi passport was supposed to look like, so it didn't even have to be a good fake ID.

Reply by PAW on 3/19/09 7:43pm
Msg #281429

Re: That's what state certification or apostille is for

Most notaries are aware of the what an Apostille and Notarial Certification, Authentication and Legalization is all about. At least they should be. However, many notaries are not aware that some countries require that ALL documents submitted to an Embassy or Consulate for legalization have embossed seals including the notarized document, the state Notarial Certification and the US Department of State Authentication .

BTW, your statement, "... ask for an apostille or US State Dept. certification which is the same thing except for foreign countries." isn't quite accurate. An Apostille is only valid for countries and states that subscribe to the Hague Convention of 5 October 1961 Abolishing the Requirement of Legalisation for Foreign Public Documents (http://hcch.e-vision.nl/index_en.php?act=conventions.status&cid=41). Documents being submitted to non-member countries typically require the state to authenticate the notarial authority, then the US Department of State for country authentication (http://www.state.gov/m/a/auth/) and then to the Embassy or Consulate of the country to receive the document for legalization.