Posted by NJW/FL on 3/28/09 7:47am
Msg #282477

Here is a question...

that may sound silly but, I sometimes have instructions from the title company to make sure that the borrower signs the docs EXACTLY as their name is typed on the doc. This has never been an issue for me in the past five years. How about if their LEGAL signature is a jumble that you cannot read and only looks like three letters and their name is way longer than that.... and the instructions state that they MUST sign their entire middle name also. Their signature now no longer looks like the signature on their id. plus they do not want to sign differently than they have been . What is the proper way? Yesterday the gentleman did not want to alter his legal signature by signing full name out, but did agree to do it. Opinions please....

Reply by MW/VA on 3/28/09 7:56am
Msg #282480

I also run into that all the time. I go over that with the borrowers first thing--need to sign docs as John S. Doe, for example, and initial JSD. Often their usual signature is a squiggle, and no one would ever be able to make out if the "S" is there or not. I've taken the position that I'm not there to judge penmanship--just witness signatures. I've never had one kicked back for the way it was signed.

Reply by Lee/AR on 3/28/09 8:00am
Msg #282481

imho, you cannot tell a person what his/her signature is. That being said, if title wants First Middle Last and they want to sign---very clearly---First M Last, I would tell them 'this isn't going to fly---please sign your whole Middle name, too'. Personally, I love unreadable ones--and Signature Affs! Consistency of squiggle is necessary. I always wonder how 'the artist formerly known as Prince' signs his mortagages. LOL

Reply by Teddog/CO on 3/28/09 8:05am
Msg #282482

NJW/FL Yes, a thousand times yes they must sign their name exactly as it appears on the docs and initial with the middle initial also if it's on the docs.
I've had people pull that same thing. Pretty rare because most adults know already they have to sign legal docs with the exact way the name is on the docs. My responce is always "Sorry if you want your loan to close we must follow the lenders instructions to the "T." No lazy short-cuts for the BWR who just doesn't feel like taking the time to sign their name properly.
Wow! We sure see some really poor handwriting must be from the younger generation using computers. I always check the photo ID signature if it's really bad I note that on the copy of the ID before I send the pkg back. Just so the company knows I checked everything and it's just truly rotten handwriting.

Reply by WDMD on 3/28/09 8:17am
Msg #282483

I had a "signing agent" try to bully me into signing the way she wanted me to. Told her it was my loan, my signature is not going to change to make her happy, and if the lender did not like it, I would find a new lender.

She grumbled through the whole signing telling me I was going to have to re-sign. Never heard a word from my lender about my signature, but my lender did hear about that signing agent.

I took out a equity a week later and told them if they sent that same girl the loan was not getting signed. They sent someone else.

Reply by thnotary_NY on 3/28/09 8:36am
Msg #282486

And this is why, although not required in NY, I carry a journal. I have them sign and I watch and then compare the signature against the licence. If they don't hesitate and the licence looks good, even if I can't read it on either one, then it's pretty much good and I'll accept it on the docs. Let someone else have conflict with it.

Reply by Vince/KS on 3/28/09 8:37am
Msg #282487

Mostly agree with Teddog. That is to say, the first item I look at is the drivers license when entering info into my log book. Assuming it has the full legal name, but it "is messy", I try and remind the borrower that it needs to look at least like and "as good" as the drivers license copy that is being submitted with the documents and should be consistent with it and throughout the documents (have to say this with a smile - especially on the big packages we are seeing now). If drivers license does not have the full legal name, you must use your best judgement on how it would look on at least one other acceptable ID source (many of which do not require a signature).

If the signature on the documents does not match his/her legal signature, you will likely have a major problem. I would not ask someone to "sign legibly" when they have a "trademark" signature.

Reply by Marc Miller on 3/28/09 8:44am
Msg #282490

Simple. You have to follow lender instructions. If you don't they will not fund and they may require a re-draw of the documents. Explain to the borrower that they must sign in accordance with the instructions of the loan will not fund. If they refuse, stop and call the title company.

Reply by WDMD on 3/28/09 8:51am
Msg #282491

"Simple. You have to follow lender instructions. If you don't they will not fund and they may require a re-draw of the documents. Explain to the borrower that they must sign in accordance with the instructions of the loan will not fund. If they refuse, stop and call the title company."


So you're saying you give legal advice to the borrower telling them it will not fund? How do you know what a lender will accept or not? What if the lender would have accepted the signatures the way they were signed, such as being not legible?

Reply by Yowheelz on 3/28/09 9:00am
Msg #282493

You can only instruct the borrower, you can't hold their hand and force them to write out their name. If I wanted to teach penmanship I would be a teacher not a signing agent.

Reply by PAW on 3/28/09 10:14am
Msg #282509

A signature is ...

... whatever the signer customarily uses and states as their signature. This is from the Florida SOS and AG offices. By definition, a signature is nothing more than a 'mark' that signifies knowledge, approval, acceptance, or obligation. (West's Encyclopedia of American Law)

The Tennessee statutory definition: “Signature” or “signed” includes a mark, the name being written near the mark and witnessed, or any other symbol or methodology executed or adopted by a party with intention to authenticate a writing or record, regardless of being witnessed. Tenn. Code § 1-3-105. Florida's statutory definition is very similar.

So, if the signer scribbles on the paper and states "this is my signature", then so be it. I always tell the signer they need to sign the documents exactly as their name appears. It's up to them to interpret and abide, if they so desire. But, as has been the case in the past, if a signer neatly signs their name so it is readable, but their normal (and legal) signature is chicken scratch, the signer can later say he/she didn't sign that document. Their signatures just don't match. Of course, that is why you will see "Name/Signature Affidavits" to protect the lender from this ploy.

Reply by WDMD on 3/28/09 10:59am
Msg #282511

Re: A signature is ...

"So, if the signer scribbles on the paper and states "this is my signature", then so be it. I always tell the signer they need to sign the documents exactly as their name appears. It's up to them to interpret and abide, if they so desire. But, as has been the case in the past, if a signer neatly signs their name so it is readable, but their normal (and legal) signature is chicken scratch, the signer can later say he/she didn't sign that document. Their signatures just don't match. Of course, that is why you will see "Name/Signature Affidavits" to protect the lender from this ploy."


Exactly.

Reply by MichiganAl on 3/29/09 8:24pm
Msg #282613

That's pretty much exactly how I handle it

I tell them to sign their name as it appears but if their signature is pretty much illegible not to change the way they sign. I much prefer someone who signs illegibly; then there's no debating whether or not their middle initial is or isn't in there.

Reply by Kevin/Ct on 3/28/09 11:19am
Msg #282513

In Connecticut any mark made with the intent to authenticate is a legal signature. Last year I had a signing in which the signatory never learned to sign his name in cursive. His printed name was his signature. Interestingly one of the local towns has the names of all of the founding town fathers inscribed on a stone monument. Apparently one of them was a native America, his signature was a pictograph of a bow and arrow.

Reply by trnsa_IL on 3/28/09 11:28am
Msg #282514

I had a doctor and his wife who came to this country but could not "sign" in cursive, so the TC approved for them to print as it was the only way they could "sign." Matched their ID as well. I have also had signers who scribbled after I stated to sign exactly as their name appears. I just clarified the name they signed and move on. It has never been a problem.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/28/09 11:48am
Msg #282517

If John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith signs his name with a series of straight lines (which I wouldn't blame him!) - and he tells me that's his usual signature, who am I to argue with him? Especially if that signature matches the signature on his DL or other ID.....lender and/or title should already be aware of how he signs by virtue of the application and advance disclosures that were signed at the beginning of the process.

My .02..

Reply by SOCAL/CA on 3/28/09 11:52am
Msg #282519

The borrower's signature is what it is. We are not the cursor police. IMHO.

Reply by LynnNC on 3/28/09 12:01pm
Msg #282522

If a borrower's signature on ID is a squiggle, I let them sign that way. But if their signature is legible, I have them sign the way their name is on the documents.

Reply by SOCAL/CA on 3/28/09 12:08pm
Msg #282524

I agree with LynnNC.

Reply by Todd/OH on 3/29/09 3:52pm
Msg #282577

I can't remember the last time I had a problem.

Going the other extreme, I had a signing involving a trust. I didn't think much of it, having the borrower sign a certain way under specific instruction - rather long trust title in this case. They signed in calligraphy - each and every document. I was SO wishing I had a good book handy - took forever.

Reply by Doris_CO on 3/29/09 8:05pm
Msg #282607

Re: Another question along this line? n/m

Reply by Doris_CO on 3/29/09 8:09pm
Msg #282608

Re: Another question along this line?

Sorry about that - the question I wanted to ask is what have you done when the instructions say to sign as the name is typed but the title docs have the first, middle initial and last name and the loan docs have just the first and last name with no middle initial?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/29/09 8:16pm
Msg #282611

Re: Another question along this line?

Then, IMO...that's the way they sign - one way on title docs, one way on loan docs....that's what the A/K/A Affidavits are for....and providing the name I need to notarize can be properly identified.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 3/28/09 12:08pm
Msg #282523

MORE likely to have funding issues if you force ...

someone to sign their name as YOU think it should be. The biggest problems will come from two causes:

1) someone instructing a signer to use anything BUT their normal/usual signature - because A) it won't match their license and B) they're far more likely to be inconsistent from document to document, since it's not their normal/usual signature.

2) someone with a very legible signature that is clearly missing a requested middle initial, middle name or Jr/Sr, etc.

A person's signature = their "mark" - look at it like a picture, not text. When auditors look for forged signatures, they look for inconsistencies and 'flow' - forcing someone to use a contrived 'mark' is going to up the chances they'll flunk out on the consistency.

The Signature Affidavit says this "mark" is MY signature for this "text/printed name" version of my name (in so many words). This is like 'back-up evidence' for all the other identical marks on all the other documents. It is CRUCIAL that the mark on this affidavit is consistent with all the others. So many times, closers will direct a signer to use something DIFFERENT on that document, as if that will solve some NSA-invented issue - when in fact, it only creates an issue.

It is a problem when a person has a very legible script and is obviously missing some requested component - those signatures do need a little 'directing', to include the middle initial or whatever is asked.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 3/28/09 1:17pm
Msg #282530

Chances are that the lender has already sent them pre-loan

docs to sign way before we get there. Borrowers sign these pre-loan docs the way they want. We have no control over that. How many times have we heard from borrowers "I've already signed this" etc etc. I'm sure lender accepts the signature that they sign these with. I don't worry if its ledgible - all I have them sign is the way it is pre-printed (with or without middle name/initial etc).

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 3/29/09 10:06pm
Msg #282620

Re: Chances are that the lender has already sent them pre-loan

I had a borrower just the other day refuse to sign what was typed on the line. They had Michael on signature line, he insisted his signature was Mike and if he were to sign Micheal then it would not be his true signature. Mike did match his ID.

I also recently had 3 signers who were from another country and did not know how to sign in cursive. Cursive is not a concept that they understood. All they could do was print.

Reply by NJW/FL on 3/30/09 7:56am
Msg #282634

Wow! Thank you for all of the input and the other questions along this line. It is great to be able to get so much input from everyone.