Posted by Mickey_Fan on 3/6/09 2:34pm
Msg #279846
Provident Loan - Broker mad, good thing I have E&O
I got a call on Friday about 4:55 PM, need a signing done near my office that night. I agreed to the fee and the docs were e-mailed to me. It was a Provident Loan.
I was to contact the mortgage broker (MB) for the borrower's information to set the appointment. Called the MB and he gave me a phone number. I got home, started printing the docs, and called the number. It was disconnected.
Called the MB back and told him the situation. Also called the signing service to keep them fully apprised of the situation. MB stated he was on his way to his son’s game, but he would find the number in his blackberry and get right back to me.
9:00 PM Friday he still hasn't called back. 8:30 AM Saturday he called and couldn't figure out why the number I had didn't work, since it worked for the appraiser, but here's the last number they called FROM.
Called the borrower and set the appointment for 3 PM. (Turns out they changed phone carriers and the new carrier would not bring over their old number.) The MB had NEVER TOLD THE BORROWER that I was going to contact them, or how much money they would have to come up with. Got there and started the signing. When I asked for the check (almost $30K) they were not happy. I asked them to call their MB. He called back (almost 45 minutes later) and said not to worry about it.
Now that you have an idea of the ethics of this MB.........
It's a Provident loan. My SECOND Provident loan. I was told by the signing service that I am not to fill in anything on the RTC as far as dates go, that the borrower must do so. They filled in the signing date and did not fill in the date for 3 days later. I busted my tail to get the docs to FedEx so they would be received by title Monday morning, again keeping the signing service totally informed about everything going on with the loan.
Monday comes and the title co. has the docs. No word from them. Tuesday comes, and no word from title. Wednesday comes. I had my beloved nineteen-year-old cat put to sleep and was not thinking clearly. Was home missing her and the signing service called. Provident was upset about the borrower changing some dates on the docs (wife kept having to check her watch and I kept telling her that it was the 28th), and that I had totally messed up the RTC by not having them completely fill it in.
I printed the docs necessary, called the borrower and made an appointment for that night at 8 PM. Got the signatures/dates necessary. Went to my day job office, scanned docs into e-mail, and sent them to the signing service. FedEx'd the originals the following day. Got confirmation today that title has the docs.
Today the signing service tells me that the MB wants my E&O since he is going to file a claim for his loss.
OK, I screwed up with the RTC because the date was missing. We do learn from our mistakes. And I just hope that my E&O company (policy purchased through NotRot) will tell this sleazebag to go pound sand. What I would like to know is this ... why could they not have told me on Monday or Tuesday that the docs needed to be re-done? If it was such a hot loan to get closed, how come the information was so wrong that I could not sign till 3 PM on Saturday rather than the Friday evening I was told it had to be signed by? And why did this sleazebag not bother to even tell his valuable client that I was going to be contacting them?
Thanks for allowing me to vent.
~Barbara
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Reply by BrendaTx on 3/6/09 2:38pm
Msg #279847
*Today the signing service tells me that the MB wants my E&O since he is going to file a claim for his loss.*
Your E&O is Notary E&O? If so...well...to the MB, good luck with that. The RTC isn't a notarized document so I don't think they're going to get much help from them.
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Reply by PAW on 3/6/09 2:57pm
Msg #279851
Correct me if I'm wrong ...
But this MB cannot file a claim against the notary's E&O. The MB can file a claim against the notary's bond and sue the notary for the rest. Then the notary can take the suit to their insurance carrier to see if it is covered. (The bonding agency will probably also seek restitution from the notary which may be covered by the notary's E&O.)
Bond - Protection for the notary's clients from the notary
E&O - Protection for the notary
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Reply by MistarellaFL on 3/6/09 2:58pm
Msg #279853
And exactly what is "his loss" in this situation?
The MB, that is.
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Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 3/6/09 7:10pm
Msg #279876
I May Have to Correct You In One Regard...
...& that would be it's not an absolute necessity to make the claim under the notary bond & then make a claim against the Notary's E&O. It doesn't necessarily have to follow that order. The E&O policy stands by itself & doesn't have to be coordinated with the bond in any manner for settling a claim. For example the only reference in my own Notary E&O Insurance policy to any other coverage is under the "Co-Insurance" provision where it states: "If the Insured has other insurance against a loss covered by this policy, the Company shall not be liable under this policy for a greater proportion of such loss than the limit of liability stated in this policy bears to the total limit of liability of all valid and collectible insurance against such loss." The key word in the policy clause is "insurance". A bond is not an insurance policy...they're two separate types of coverages. The "Co-Insurance" clause would only kick in if there was another type of "insurance" policy in force protecting the same insured. The party seeking restitution CAN most certainly seek relief under both, but the E&O carrier wouldn't reduce the amount they're liable for by the amount paid under the bond provisions.
Having commented on the claim process itself, I also think it's just an "idle threat" threat the MB is making. In my opinion it's never going to happen...but then I learned a long time ago in the insurance business one should never say never. Another consideration in all this is the Notary E&O Insurance or the notary bond wouldn't come into play anyway if the "error or omission" is the RTC. That would be non-Notary related. There'd need to be Signing Agent E&O in force to provide coverage for the insured on that document.
By the way, the foregoing is based on my current status as a MO licensed P&C insurance producer of 32 years & should not be construed as legal or insurance advice. It's only my opinion based on my knowledge of insurance laws in the State of MO which may not be applicable in other states. Seek the opinion of a licensed agent in the state in which you reside for the definitive answer.
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Reply by dickb/wi on 3/6/09 8:24pm
Msg #279885
denniis that would also hold in wi........ n/m
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Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 3/6/09 8:39pm
Msg #279890
The Best Way to Look at This is...
...if the E&O company is going to be on the hook for a loss, they're going to want to be informed of the claim from the beginning. They wouldn't want to hear about it after the bond company has already paid $'s to a claimant. They may have a different take on whether there's liability on their insured's part.
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Reply by PAW on 3/6/09 9:22pm
Msg #279904
Re: I May Have to Correct You In One Regard...
Of course you are correct Dennis. I didn't mean to imply that there is only one path to E&O. Some notaries aren't even required to be bonded anyway. I should have been clearer in my dissertation.
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Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 3/7/09 5:19am
Msg #279943
You Made an Excellent Point, Paul...
...I only intended to expand upon it!
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Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/6/09 2:57pm
Msg #279852
It always puzzles me why some lenders will leave the RTC dates blank, and expect the lowly notary (or borrower) to be responsible for making sure these very important dates are correctly and completely filled in. It's not difficult for the notary to do it - I'm just amazed that such a critical doc is left to the notary to complete when the lender could easily complete it with pre-printed dates.
Sounds like the injured party needs to go after the Signing Service E&O, since it must have the required $500K policy that Provident requires. However, I do agree that the notary should have been notified on Monday if there was a problem.
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Reply by spnotaryplus on 3/6/09 4:42pm
Msg #279864
In response to "why some lenders will leave the RTC dates blank, and expect the lowly notary (or borrower) to be responsible for making sure these very important dates are correctly and completely filled in"
My experience with this is that sometimes its the compliance officers in the lendes office who make this a big issue and not necessarily the lender. In my office we fought a lot about this issue. So much was involved on the C.O's part but for us it was very simple. Some C.O's see it as a way for the borrower to get out of the loan after the recission period has expired if a mistake happens. They can say lender filled in dates and only followed what system populated on the form. It has happened and as stupid as it may sound that is what I had to deal with.
Seems easier to blame the notary and remove the lender from any blame.
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Reply by Becca_FL on 3/6/09 3:12pm
Msg #279856
My question is this...
Why didn't you contact the SS that hired you to inform them that the MB had not supplied you with the information you needed to complete the closing that day? I know you said this was only your second Provident loan, but Provident instructions are pretty clear. They do not accept any documents with corrections and closing a day later than the docs were dated would mean having to correct the RTC. Did you discuss any of this with the SS that hired you?
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Reply by LKT/CA on 3/6/09 3:27pm
Msg #279858
I'm wondering why the MB was the only person with the bo's contact information. If even the SS didn't have it (which seems really strange) it would seem the one thing you could do to take any blame away would be to show up at the address on the docs at 8pm. Yes, the borrowers could be refinancing that property and residing somewhere else, but with a bad phone and no other help, at least you could say you tried to get the loan signed THAT NIGHT with what little you had to go on. Hopefully, there wasn't a great distance between your home, office and the borrower's address.
If you were to show up at the address on the docs and the borrowers did reside there (it wasn't investment property) but that night was inconvenient, at least you would get good phone numbers, inform them of the cashier's check needed and reschedule. And the ball would be in the MB's court for not providing you with borrower contact info. There would be nothing he could say.....you tried with what you had to go on. And any court action the MB thinks he has, will just reveal his incompetance once the judge sees that you did what you could with what you had.
As far as the RTC mistake, if you just needed to get out of there because the borrowers were ticked off about the $30K they needed to have but were not aware of, you can always drive around the corner and check your work in the car to make sure you had all signatures and everything was filled out as needed.
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Reply by Kevin/Ct on 3/6/09 5:20pm
Msg #279867
You have a right to a full disclosure of both the nature of the claim and damages as well as an itemized accounting of how the damages were derived. In a suit for negligence the plaintiff must prove quantifiable damages to succeed. In a suit for contract breach consequential damages they must be the foreseeable outgrowth of the breach. In which case you still have the right to an itemized accounting of the damages. In any event you need to notify your insurance carrier immediately of the claim. Otherwise your insurer may deny the claiim for failure to give them timely notice.
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Reply by SoCal Signing Co. on 3/6/09 6:26pm
Msg #279870
They are threatening for the sake of making you worried.. NOTHING will be done.
They want to vent because Provident is so difficult and it might of cost a rate lock fee, and this is frustrating.
Provident does not give an inch for any errors at all.
they are very clear about what they expect.. always read the lender instructions
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Reply by Kevin/Ct on 3/6/09 6:51pm
Msg #279874
Precisely why we will not accepot any further closings from them.
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Reply by sue_pa on 3/6/09 8:36pm
Msg #279889
Without all the details, I'm going to go out again as odd man and say there WAS notary error here ... unless quite a bit is missing or misstated. Was the broker an idiot - who knows but if he was, EXTRA caution is required on our parts the minute we realize that.
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Reply by dickb/wi on 3/6/09 8:48pm
Msg #279896
you never admit guilt on an unsure accusation!!!!!!........ n/m
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Reply by sue_pa on 3/7/09 8:13am
Msg #279949
Re: you never admit guilt on an unsure accusation!!!!!!........
not just unsure but ANY accusation.
I did NOT let the cat outside.
I did NOT drop the remote - I've got no idea why it doesn't work.
I did NOT forget the chicken in the oven and let it in there all night long.
And I certainly did NOT waste money on that valentine's table cloth - it was 75% off.
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Reply by dickb/wi on 3/7/09 2:24pm
Msg #279984
sue i saw you drop the remote!!!..... n/m
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Reply by Joan Robinson on 3/6/09 8:42pm
Msg #279892
If it's a Provident loan, it wasn't going to fund anyways
because if you got your E&O from NR, you don't have the proper E&O to do a Provident Loan. Provident would reject it and charge the title company $300 for the redraw. Additionally, one of the EIGHT instructions is to not allow any corrections on the documents. You should have pulled out a clean copy rather than let the borrower correct. Again, this causes a redraw and the fee.
Joan-OH
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/6/09 8:47pm
Msg #279895
Joan, maybe she was covered under the hiring party's ins.. n/m
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Reply by Joan_OH on 3/6/09 9:28pm
Msg #279905
Re: Joan, maybe she was covered under the hiring party's ins..
I am correcting myself - there are SIX instructions: #3 PF does not allow any strikeovers, cross-outs, corrections, white-outs or borrowers initials on any documents.
Regarding being covered by the hiring party: "In areas where independent Document - Signing Services are used, it is acceptable if the document signing service employs the notary and supplies PF with the following documentation......Evidence of E & O of at least $500K...."
I really don't think most of us can be considered "employees" of the SS. I know Les/CO has a friend with an SS that has insurance that has been "approved" by Provident, but considering the rules, I don't see how.
I think the MB wanted her E&O to see if she has the $500K. Someone is going to have to pay for the redraw and the MB and Title is going to try to make the notary do it athough the closing agent/title company is required to sign a form acknowledging they know the rules and print in who notarized the closing and who they were "employed" by. If it's being redrawn because the hiring party didn't verify the proper E&O, then it's on them. If it's being redrawn because she let the borrower make corrections, then it could be on her.
I know people think these are a PITA, but really, 6 instructions isn't all that hard. They are not hidden - right on the 2nd page of the package. Saw a PF a last month for 4.3 fixed, 30yr, 2nd home rider - made ME call the broker to inquire about refinancing. They are sticklers for perfect paperwork and there is no reason why they shouldn't have it. Judging from the state of the Mortgage industry right now, I'm not so sure this country would be in the situation we are if all lenders were like Provident.
Joan-OH
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Reply by Pat/IL on 3/6/09 9:39pm
Msg #279908
I agree with Joan on all counts.
I actually grew to like Provident after a while because of their clean packages and timely delivery. I suppose the employee (or notary with $500,000 in E&O) rule is simply skirted on a widespread basis (perhaps with the knowledge of the Provident office, I don't know). Otherwise, I don't think you would see many independent notaries who have worked with them.
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/6/09 9:46pm
Msg #279910
Funny you say that, Pat
I agree with Joan, too, and in my former life in CT I used to love doing Provident's packages...all *I*'s dotted and all *T*'s crossed - they were great to work with..
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Reply by dickb/wi on 3/6/09 8:42pm
Msg #279893
i think you wii find no date in rtc is blowing wind.......
see the bold portion relating to rtc dates........it is quite clear that it could be ok with out the dates as the dates can be taken from the sig and date on th til or the mlortgage......jmho
Federal Trade Commission. Bureau of Consumer Protection. Office of Consumer and Business Education
If you're considering applying for a personal loan and using your home to guarantee repayment, you should know that a federal credit law gives you three days to reconsider a signed credit agreement and cancel the deal without penalty. Your "right to rescind " or "right to cancel" is guaranteed by the Truth In Lending Act. You can rescind for any reason but only if you are using your principal resi- dence -whether it is a condominium, mobile home, or house boat -as collateral, not a vacation or second home.
Under the right to rescind, you have until midnight of the third business day to cancel the credit transaction. Day one begins after all three of the following occur:
.you sign the credit contract;
.you receive a Truth in Lending disclosure form containing certain key information about the credit contract, including the annual percentage rate; finance charge; an1Ount financed; and payment schedule; and
.you receive two copies of a Truth in Lending notice explaining your right to rescind.
For rescission purposes, business days include Saturdays but not Sundays or legal public holidays. For example, if the events listed above take place on a Friday, you have until midnight on the next Tuesday to rescind.
During this waiting period, activity related to the contract cannot take place. The creditor may not deliver the money for the loan. If you 're dealing with a home improvement loan, the contractor may not deliver any materials or start work.
If you decide to rescind, you must notify the creditor in writing. You may not rescind by telephone or in a face-to-face conversation with the creditor. Your written notice must be mailed, filed for tele- graphic transmission, or delivered if by other written means, before midnight of the third business day.
If you cancel the contract, the security interest in your home is also cancelled, and you are not liable for any amount, including the finance charge. The creditor has 20 days to return all money or property you paid as part of the transaction and release any security interest in your home. If you received money or property from the creditor, you may retain it until the creditor shows that your home is no longer being used as collateral and returns any money you have paid. Then, you must offer to return the creditor's money or property. If the creditor does not claim the money or property within
-
20 days, you may keep it. ..
If you have a bona fide personal financial emergency -such as damage to your home from a
storm or other natural disaster -the law allows you to waive your right to rescind and eliminate the
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Reply by Pat/IL on 3/6/09 9:17pm
Msg #279900
Ending rescission date is necessary on the RTC
From TILA on the rescission document:
"(b)(1) Notice of right to rescind. In a transaction subject to rescission, a creditor shall deliver two copies of the notice of the right to rescind to each consumer entitled to rescind
{{8-29-08 p.6670.01}}(one copy to each if the notice is delivered in electronic form in accordance with the consumer consent and other applicable provisions of the E-Sign Act). The notice shall be on a separate document that identifies the transaction and shall clearly and conspicuously disclose the following:
(i) The retention or acquisition of a security interest in the consumer's principal dwelling.
(ii) The consumer's right to rescind the transaction.
(iii) How to exercise the right to rescind, with a form for that purpose, designating the address of the creditor's place of business.
(iv) The effects of rescission, as described in paragraph (d) of this section.
(v) The date the rescission period expires. "
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/6/09 9:36pm
Msg #279906
Re: Ending rescission date is necessary on the RTC
"You have a legal right under federal law to cancel this transaction, without cost, within THREE BUSINESS DAYS from whichever of the following events occurs last:
1. the date of the transaction, which is ; or
2. the date you receive your Truth in Lending disclosures; or
3. the date you receive this notice of your right to cancel."
Although it's important that the ending date be included, it could be argued that if omitted it does not void the rescission period due to the inclusion of the above language....they sign on xx/xx/xxxx they have 3 days from that date....
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/6/09 9:38pm
Msg #279907
s/b "they have 3 BUSINESS days... n/m
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Reply by Pat/IL on 3/6/09 9:44pm
Msg #279909
Re: Ending rescission date is necessary on the RTC
Linda, I think it may be more of a disclosure thing, that the ending date has to be conspicuously visible. I don't know if would void the rescission period. But I imagine it could cause problems for the lender in the future, which may prompt the lender to restart the rescission with the 't's dotted and the 'i's crossed.
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/6/09 9:47pm
Msg #279911
LOL Pat....copycat.....:) n/m
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Reply by Pat/IL on 3/6/09 9:58pm
Msg #279912
Re: LOL Pat....copycat.....:)
Ahem... Look at the times next to our posts. ; }
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/6/09 10:04pm
Msg #279915
Nooo..I will NOT concede...<G>...:) n/m
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Reply by Pat/IL on 3/6/09 10:11pm
Msg #279916
Re: Nooo..I will NOT concede...<G>...:)
Ha ha, that's okay. I'll concede. I am married and so I am used to it. I will concede that your post at 9:46 PM happened before my post at 9:44 PM. How's that? Or, we could call it a tie, but that's no fun.
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/6/09 10:20pm
Msg #279922
LOL - too funny - a tie is good - guess you typed faster.. n/m
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Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/7/09 5:45am
Msg #279946
<< When I asked for the check (almost $30K) they were not happy. I asked them to call their MB. He called back (almost 45 minutes later) and said not to worry about it. >>
I'm not sure how this loan could have possibly funded even with perfect paperwork. If the L/O told the B's "not to worry" about bringing the required $30K to the table, then the loan cannot possibly be a go due to that alone.
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/7/09 9:22am
Msg #279960
Linda, he probably figures they can wire the funds
during the 3-day rescission period....just my guess.
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Reply by Doris_CO on 3/7/09 10:41am
Msg #279970
Just some observations and questions. 1) The loan was scheduled originally for Friday but closed on Saturday. Were the docs date specific or not? I'm not familiar with Provident loans but if they're as picky about corrections could they be just as picky about the dates? 2) $30,000 short and the borrowers didn't know? Something doesn't sound right! For an amount that large, I would have called the borrowers to give them a heads up before I walked out the door, especially for a closing on a Saturday.
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Reply by Gary_CA on 3/9/09 5:19pm
Msg #280108
Well, I'm late to the party, but a couple thoughts...
#1 I think you get a demerit fair and square on the RTC... it's pretty basic that they need the two dates. By the way, I got one of those back from Provident because I filled in dates on a blank one and since there was nothing crossed out I did not have the initialed (CW's std op proced)...Provident wanted anything not typed to be initialed.
#2 As picky as Provident is, those docs weren't going to fly...that explains the three days before the call to you, the TC and Provident were trying to figure out how to work it out. These things happen. Oh #$%^! You fix it and drive on.
#3 As for the Mortgage Broker...these things happen, he wasn't on top of it. As for getting your E&O he can stick that in or blow it out whichever hole he likes. Tell him to go away. Better yet, let him talk to your voice mail and keep them just in case but don't spend your day fretting over his crapola. (He's a mortgage broker in 2009, he can't afford a lawyer anyway.)
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