Posted by Therese on 3/10/09 9:23pm
Msg #280235

Question of the day..........CA notaries

What is reasonable reliance? Is it reasonable to believe the idenity of a person when their names are
mistated on their identification? Maybe by being mispelled ie. Jose for Joseph or Angelina for Angeline or missing a middle name or Jr. or Sr or the II or the 3rd or whatever the case might be.
What one might think is reasonable a court of law may determine
it is not. I am so FRUSTRATED!!!! and venting.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 3/10/09 10:26pm
Msg #280250


From page 8 of the 2009 manual:

=============
“Satisfactory Evidence” means the absence of any information, evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the individual is not the individual he or she claims to be...
=============

There are no mandated specifics, just the State telling us to use our common sense. They assume that if we managed to pass the exam, we probably have some amount of it. But, we all know that common sense and "reasonable person" are really subjective ideas.

I'm of the opinion that if their official ID has an incorrect name or misspelling, they need to get it fixed. I always take each situation as if I would need to testify about this act in court. I would have to be confident that the names matched. If not, I'd give them alternative ideas like credible witnesses.

About a month ago I met a man from Brazil who goes by James or Jimmy. But his ID says "Tiago" -- which is the Portuguese version of James. I told him that I understood (I lived in Brazil so I really did understand) but that his paperwork and the signature line all said "James" on it. Honestly, I was "reasonably satisfied" that he was who he said he was... because I know that James and Tiago are really the same name, but I ultimately declined because if that ended up in court, the court might not think I was reasonable. I don't want to put myself in a what-if type of situation, so I don't.

What I did do, though, is suggest he have a couple of credible witnesses help him out, and that's what we did. Now I can pass on the perjury liability to the witnesses, both of whom had accurate ID.

I am very careful, though... and I follow the more not less rule for first and middle names. I generally insist that the last name is accurate.

For example:

ID says: Joe John Smith

OK names: Joe Smith, J.J. Smith, J. John Smith, Jo Jo Smith, J. Smith

Not ok: Joseph Smith, John Joe Smith, Joe Smithson, Johnson Smith, Joe Smith Jr., Joe Smith II, J.J. Smithfield, etc.

Reply by Therese Burgueno on 3/10/09 11:36pm
Msg #280259

Re: Agreed

Page 8 of the 2009 manual subtext under Satisfactory Evidence:

A. Paper Identification Documents – Identity of the signer can be established by the notary
public’s reasonable reliance.


Its just sooo subjective!

Reply by JAM/CA on 3/11/09 12:15am
Msg #280262

Re: Agreed

I agree with Marian 100%, especially for California.

Reply by Ocean Pacific Notary Services, Inc. on 3/11/09 1:36am
Msg #280267

Re: Agreed

I have a similar issue with a notary and a set of loan docs, so I need your professional feedback.

Borrowers first name (jacquelyn) on CAL D/L - correct
Loan docs first name (jacqueline) on loan docs - incorrect

Property is in trust and it would cost borrower some bucks to amend the trust to reflect correct first name. Mind you middle name and last name match ID exactly.

Notary refuses to notarize because ID and loan docs do not match EXACTLY. How often does the name match exactly. - surely not 100%. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/11/09 2:58am
Msg #280274

Re: Agreed

I'd say that's a judgment call on the part of the notary. Sometimes you have to go with your gut. I might ask to see if she had any other ID to back up the misspelling on the loan docs, but if the ID was correct, I wouldn't expect to see any. (Maybe she varies how she spells it?? Doubtful.) If the spelling on the loan docs was how title was recorded originally and not a mistake in this package, that would make me wonder how it ever came to be wrong to begin with. And why wouldn't the attorney who created the trust in the first place not have noticed the error and taken steps to fix it when the property was put into the trust? Why did the original package get recorded with the name misspelled? [Well, I have a pretty good idea about that one... ]

In situations like that, with the cirrent potential liabilities and threats of perjury (a felony) in CA, I'd say the notary was within their rights to decline. Over the years, I've heard so many stories about similar/same names within families that you just can't be too careful. However, if they did somehow come up with a plausible reason and talk me into notarizing, I would spell the name on my certificate only the way it was on the ID.

BTW, I'm guessing I would see this differently than if it was a shortened version or a nickname. When it's a name flat out spelled differently, that raises a red flag with me. It's hard to say for sure, because there are usually more clues to judge from at the table than what can be communicated here. Personally, there are some situations where I will give a little leeway if the name doesn't match EXACTLY. I can't really say that this would be one.

Reply by Therese on 3/11/09 9:59am
Msg #280292

Re:Ocean Pacific

Did the notary actually refuse or did they offer to us CW's in this instance?

Credible Witnesses is allowed in the California and the notary should be aware of this option.

Reply by sue_pa on 3/11/09 7:50am
Msg #280283

I'm not in CA but this stuff drives me crazy. Jose and Joseph are completely different. One letter different is iffy - Tracy/Tracey, etc. and almost always doesn't end up being a problem because they can come up with another form of id.

Women who get married and divorced drive me nuts. Had one the other week who has been divorced since 1986 (I had to pick up the divorce decree). How she, Wachovia, and the title company thought that her not having her ducks in a row after all these years was my problem, I'll never know. By my math, she's had 23 years to get her deed changed.

What about the IDIOT I had the other week. Id shows Michael Patrick Smith. Loan docs show Patrick Matthew Smith. Seems he didn't like Michael so he went by Patrick. Matthew was his confirmation name so he just threw that in for fun. This guy was 56 years old and could not grasp that his id wasn't acceptable. To make matters worse, the title company looked at several signatures (prior mortgage and a release of info) and they were completely different signatures ... seems he had his wife sign the release to obtain this new loan. This IDIOT was the sales manager at a car dealership so he certainly had to understand running names through whatever system they use for Patriot Act compliance. Not sure what actually appened because I backed out of the resign. LO and title company have a really good relationship and the LO told the owner of the tc that he's known this guy for years and he's always switched names like that. I actually truly believed that he is who he is ... but he couldn't prove it. I believe people like that would use the discrepancy as a technicality down the road if it were to his benefit. I'll be looking this one up in the court house to see what actually happened.

Don't get me started on Spanish people and adding their mother's name ... I also love and respect my mother but I didn't buy a hosue and throw her name on the deed for that reason. Id says Jose Carlos Rodriguez. Paperwork shows Jose Carlos Rodriguez Lopez ... I refuse every time because the last name on the id is Rodriguez and the last name on teh paperwork is the last name listed ... Lopez.