Posted by HKB on 3/30/09 2:06pm
Msg #282677

S.O.S.

I might have done some thing wrong here but need your advise?

I did a reverse mortgage today. The lady's driver's lic was expired, I called the signing company and they told me to verify and confinue signing.

Asked the husband to call the LO and the LO said to continue signing.

I completed the signing as instructed but is it right ..... what should I do? I have written on my certification that the license is expired.

Hasina.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 3/30/09 2:09pm
Msg #282679

In some states an expired license is acceptable identification, but not here in Florida.
What does Indiana say about acceptable ID? What does Indiana say about using your judgement on identification?
Look to Indiana's Notarial Reference manual if they have one.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/30/09 2:18pm
Msg #282682

Re: S.O.S....Misty

According to the SOS we can use it if it was issued within the last five years...

Reply by HKB on 3/30/09 2:24pm
Msg #282683

Re: S.O.S....Misty

Since I called the signing company and LO and they both told me to continue signing ....I'm writing on each certification that the lic. eas expired just above my stamp.

I think this should cover me .... do you think.

Reply by Gary_CA on 3/30/09 3:11pm
Msg #282695

The LO said it was okay, ya don't say

You mean the guy that gets paid if it records, and if not no...

I'll buy a cigar for the first person that can prove a LO ever said anything to a notary other than "no problem, go ahead and get her done."

Reply by Becca_FL on 3/30/09 7:03pm
Msg #282729

No $hit, Gary...thanks for the laugh, it's been a long day. n/m

Reply by desktopfull on 3/30/09 7:06pm
Msg #282731

Re: The LO said it was okay, ya don't say

LO's also don't mind asking you to backdate either. It's your notary commission, CYA, when in doubt contact your SOS or read your notary manual for your state. NEVER take the LO's word that it's okay, they aren't the one that will be in trouble and they will deny telling you it was okay.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 3/30/09 4:02pm
Msg #282704

Re: S.O.S....Misty

Really? Can you show me where? I didn't know that.
I have accepted an expired D/L before, but only using the satisfactory evidence.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 3/30/09 4:25pm
Msg #282707

Re: S.O.S....Linda, I still don't see it:

From Florida Statutes 117.05

2. Reasonable reliance on the presentation to the notary public of any one of the following forms of identification, if the document is current or has been issued within the past 5 years and bears a serial or other identifying number.

Linda, I don't interpret this to say it can be expired.....only that it is current or if expired, has been issued within the last 5 years. And from what I know, if it was issued within the last 5 years, it is current.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/30/09 6:14pm
Msg #282720

Misty...I called and spoke to them some time back

when I ran into the situation....they told me (think it was Heather?) if it was issued within the last 5 years it was okay.

Reply by Becca_FL on 3/30/09 8:13pm
Msg #282754

Re: S.O.S....Linda, I still don't see it: Misty

I think it's one of those CA laws that end up being believed by notaries in other states and even the all-knowing-end-all-be-all NNA. Remember all the mis-information the NNA printed in past FL primers??? Who knows, maybe it was printed in an older FL primer and there by known as law to the FL notaries that drank the kool-aid. I can't find anything in writing and won't bother asking the SOS.

Reply by PAW on 3/30/09 9:00pm
Msg #282766

Re: S.O.S....Linda, I still don't see it: Misty

In writing at: FSA 117.05(5)(b):

2. Reasonable reliance on the presentation to the notary public of any one of the following forms of identification, if the document is current or has been issued within the past 5 years and bears a serial or other identifying number:

Driver's licenses for those with work or student visas are issued a license that "expires on the expiration date on their USCIS document," except for Canadian citizens. "All Canadian citizens will be issued an original or renewal driver license for one calendar year from the date of issue." So, it is quite possible for someone to possess an expired Florida driver's license that has been issued within the past 5 years. (Source: Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles)

Reply by Becca_FL on 3/30/09 10:05pm
Msg #282774

Paul, here's the problem.

The manual on the SOS site and the "laws related to Florida notaries public" that is administered to Florida notaries is completely outdated and does not support your findings. So, I guess, the SOS just doesn't care to update Florida notaries on changes to the laws that govern FL notaries? Unless you have all the time in the world to search changes in statutes, you're lost as a FL notary? Why do we have a FL notary education email service? The only information I get from this "educational effort" is don't notarize if the person is not before you.

So here I am, debating a piss poor argument that was debated almost five years ago, relying on information provided by my SOS that is truly out of date and we all wonder why we can't get an answer to a stupid question from a government agency? How can they be that busy???

I have another stupid question for you, but it is for another time. According to the manual and, Sylvia, I am correct. However, the Broward county clerk of courts disagrees.

Reply by Becca_FL on 3/30/09 11:44pm
Msg #282790

Page 78, as if, I have nothing better to do...

I found it, again! Thank God, I haven't had to mark this page before. At least now, i have a reference.

Now, what about 741.08????? There seems to be a stink between the SOS and the clerk of court on this one, any answers that I'm not aware of Paul?

I'm anxiously awaiting answers.

Reply by jba/fl on 3/31/09 12:26am
Msg #282792

Re: Page 78, as if, I have nothing better to do...

What is the question? Not that I am any more qualified, but I have opinions...they are sometimes right, sometimes wrong.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/31/09 7:04am
Msg #282799

Re: Page 78, as if, I have nothing better to do...

"Now, what about 741.08????? There seems to be a stink between the SOS and the clerk of court on this one, any answers that I'm not aware of Paul?"

What is the problem there Becca? That is the one about marriage licenses.

Reply by PAW on 3/31/09 7:17am
Msg #282800

Re: Page 78, as if, I have nothing better to do...

741.08 Marriage not to be solemnized without a license.--Before any of the persons named in s. 741.07 shall solemnize any marriage, he or she shall require of the parties a marriage license issued according to the requirements of s. 741.01, and within 10 days after solemnizing the marriage he or she shall make a certificate thereof on the license, and shall transmit the same to the office of the county court judge or clerk of the circuit court from which it issued.

>>> There seems to be a stink between the SOS and the clerk of court on this one <<<

What's the "stink"? I don't know of any disparity between the SOS and Clerk of the Court here.

Reply by Becca_FL on 3/31/09 10:13am
Msg #282826

741.08 states...

he or she shall make a certificate thereof on the license, and shall transmit the same to the office of the county court judge or clerk of the circuit court from which it issued.

Our dear, Sylvia, gave me great guidance when I started to perform ceremonies and made it very clear to me, by way of the above statute, that it is the responsibility of the notary/minister to return the license to the clerks office. However, the Broward county clerk is instructing couples to return the license themselves. This created an issue this weekend when I had a couple decide not to go through with the ceremony because I would need to return the license. The couple decided to just go get married at the courthouse so they could get their recorded license immediately.

I gave the couple a copy of the statute to give to the clerk and the groom called yesterday to tell me I was wrong, the clerk said I was wrong and I ruined their BIG day by giving them incorrect information. Big day my a$$, one guest, jeans and tank tops, the bride was not even wearing a bra...whatever. I was ready, willing and able to perform my duties. It was the couple that decided not to go through with it.

So the couple is pi$$ed and even after showing them the statute, reading the manual verbatim and explaining that as a notary, I answer to the SOS not the Broward county clerks office and the SOS says it is my responsibility to return the license, they're not buying it.

Well?

Reply by PAW on 3/31/09 12:32pm
Msg #282846

Re: 741.08 states...

The Clerk of the Court can set their own policies as a member of the Judicial Branch. Thus, in effect, the county can supersede the SOS (an administrative officer). I didn't see anything about 'returning' the license on the Broward County Clerk's website (http://www.browardclerk.org/).

Since the Clerks are judicial in nature and are Constitutionally elected, if you have an issue, take it to the circuit court judge.

Reply by Becca_FL on 3/30/09 6:43pm
Msg #282727

Linda, I know, Sylvia, set us straight on this in 2004, but

I need to be reminded on where to located this information again. My argument then and my argument now are still the same. Florida issues DLs for a duration of six years (thanks to the elderly voters and most times, blind drivers' convenience) and issues IDs for six, sometimes ten years (back in the day, if I recall) and now issues no expiration date on IDS for those over a certain age. With these terms of expiration, this rule would only apply to those in Florida with out of state ID. Issued date is not the same as re-issued date and re-issued dates are noted on FLID and FLDL. Just something to think about.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/30/09 7:04pm
Msg #282730

Becca...I can only repeat what I was told...

My situation was a bit different - my guy's license had been suspended....I could still use the DL as ID as long as it was issued within the past 5 years...can't elderly people get their license for a shorter amount of time (I know in CT they can)....

As a side note - I always request "current" ID...before I get yelled at...

Reply by Becca_FL on 3/30/09 7:34pm
Msg #282739

How would you know if his DL was suspended?

Sorry, Linda, your scenario just makes no sense to me. Plenty of deadbeat dads in Fl are walking around with unexpired, suspended DLs. If the DBD had his license suspended and taken away in a judicial or administrative hearing, they would have no DL and would have to go get an FLID for ID purposes. The FL DMV does not issue "suspended" DLs...that's ludicrous.

Unfortunately, Linda, the elderly FL voters have been successful for years at keeping the licensing agency from testing them too often. As a matter of fact, you can renew online or by mail and go for 20+ years without taking a written test or an eye exam. I haven't taken a test or eye exam since I got my first license here 14 years ago. You know the politicians want to keep the largest voting population here in FL happy. The last time a change in this legislation came up for vote, it required people over 80 to have an eye exam every eight years before automatic renewal. I can't remember if it passed or not. You are so lucky you don't have to deal with Qtips pulling out of a parking lot, crossing three lanes of traffic on US Hwy 1 like there is no one else on the road....to them there IS no one there, THEY CAN"T FRIGGIN SEE!

Reply by Becca_FL on 3/30/09 7:42pm
Msg #282743

And, to add to what I just said...I'm not doubting you, but

I can't ever remember any FL notary that actually got any kind of answer out of the SOSs office, especially from Heather Slater. Believe me, I'm trying now and I tried a few months ago on the POA jurat deal. I'm just begining to doubt that any answers ever come out of that office other than "seek the advise of an atty."

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/30/09 7:51pm
Msg #282746

Okay...here's what happened..

His family called - needed him to sign a doc releasing his car from impound - it needed to be notarized - they told me his license had been suspended and that was the only ID he had...I was concerned about doing it because aside from the questionable ID issue, he was in a psych unit...never did go any farther - the family was going to go home and dig up the license and call me back - they never did...

It was while waiting for the family to call back that I called the SOS...AND e-mailed them....ended up leaving a message for them that I had an immediate situation that I needed advice on - Heather called me back two weeks later with the information I posted above. They've never responded to my e-mail.

I agree with you Becca - you can't get straight answers out of our SOS - I'm chasing the same issue you are....Heather wrote back to me, quoted the gov. manual, and told me to seek the advice of an attorney - I told her I wouldn't as it was her office's responsibilty to guide us, not my responsibility to incur attorney's fees to deal with issues they should be handling. I asked her to refer the question to their legal counsel and have them contact me - that was months ago and I'm still waiting...so I agree with you.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/30/09 7:41pm
Msg #282742

Re: Linda, I know, Sylvia, set us straight on this in 2004, but

Florida Statutes 322.18

a) An applicant who has not attained 80 years of age applying for an original issuance shall be issued a driver's license that expires at midnight on the licensee's birthday which next occurs on or after the eighth anniversary of the date of issue. An applicant who is at least 80 years of age applying for an original issuance shall be issued a driver's license that expires at midnight on the licensee's birthday that next occurs on or after the sixth anniversary of the date of issue.

(b) An applicant who has not attained 80 years of age applying for a renewal issuance shall be issued a driver's license that expires at midnight on the licensee's birthday that next occurs 8 years after the month of expiration of the license being renewed. An applicant who is at least 80 years of age applying for a renewal issuance shall be issued a driver's license that expires at midnight on the licensee's birthday that next occurs 6 years after the month of expiration of the license being renewed.

(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, if an applicant establishes his or her identity for a driver's license using a document authorized under s. 322.08(2)(c)5., the driver's license shall expire in accordance with paragraph (b). After an initial showing of such documentation, he or she is exempted from having to renew or obtain a duplicate in person.

(d) Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, if an applicant establishes his or her identity for a driver's license using a document authorized in s. 322.08(2)(c)7. or 8., the driver's license shall expire 1 year after the date of issuance or upon the expiration date cited on the United States Department of Homeland Security documents, whichever date first occurs.

(e) Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, an applicant applying for an original or renewal issuance of a commercial driver's license as defined in s. 322.01(7), with a hazardous-materials endorsement, pursuant to s. 322.57(1)(e), shall be issued a driver's license that expires at midnight on the licensee's birthday that next occurs 4 years after the month of expiration of the license being issued or renewed.

(3) If a license expires on a Saturday, Sunday, or legal holiday, it shall be valid until midnight of the next regular working day and may be renewed on that day without payment of a delinquent fee.

(4)(a) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, all licenses shall be renewable every 8 years and shall be issued or renewed upon application, payment of the fees required by s. 322.21, and successful passage of any required examination, unless the department has reason to believe that the licensee is no longer qualified to receive a license.

(b) Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, if an applicant establishes his or her identity for a driver's license using a document authorized under s. 322.08(2)(c)5., the license, upon an initial showing of such documentation, is exempted from having to renew or obtain a duplicate in person, unless the renewal or duplication coincides with the periodic reexamination of a driver as required pursuant to s. 322.121.

(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, if a licensee establishes his or her identity for a driver's license using an identification document authorized under s. 322.08(2)(c)7. or 8., the licensee may not renew the driver's license except in person and upon submission of an identification document authorized under s. 322.08(2)(c)7. or 8. A driver's license renewed under this paragraph expires 1 year after the date of issuance or upon the expiration date cited on the United States Department of Homeland Security documents, whichever date first occurs

Reply by Becca_FL on 3/30/09 7:45pm
Msg #282744

Please, Sylvia, dumb it down for middle aged gal on 3 hrs

sleep that was up seven times last night with a sick Macy. I can't read all that tonight. What's the gist?

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/30/09 7:49pm
Msg #282745

Re: Please, Sylvia, dumb it down for middle aged gal on 3 hrs

Gist is, some licenses are good for 8 years, some for six and some for 4 years

Sorry to hear about Macy.

Reply by Becca_FL on 3/30/09 7:54pm
Msg #282749

Thanks for that! She seems fine today.

I just hope she sleeps through the night tonight...Mom can't take it two nights in a row. Thankfully, she's sleeping now.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/30/09 2:32pm
Msg #282684

I've encountered that once or twice, with RM's in particular.
I was also told that it is ok so long as it is not more than 5 years.
We're not supposed to give advice, but I do remind people with expired D/L that state issued photo ID's are available for those who don't drive, and they might check into getting that.
As far as notary work is concerned, it is still a question as to whether you are satisfied that the person is who they say they are. It's Patriot Act that is more stringent on ID.

Reply by LynnNC on 3/30/09 2:33pm
Msg #282685

You cannot go by what a TC, LO or SS tells you to do. You must adhere to your state notary statutes.

In NC we must have a CURRENT govenment issued photo I.D.

Whenever I confirm a loan closing, I always tell the borrowers that I will need to see a current government issued photo I.D. but with a reverse mortgage, I go on to say if the borrower does not have a current driver's license, he/she will have to get a state I.D. For some reason, borrowers do not always hear the word "current"!

Reply by HKB on 3/30/09 2:58pm
Msg #282692

Thanks every one for your time and guidance.

Driver's lic expired on 3.2.09 and I feel I'm covered as I'm writing this just above my stamp.

Do you think or not.

me

Reply by LynnNC on 3/30/09 3:04pm
Msg #282693

You are not covered by writing anything above your stamp!

What do the notary statutes for your state say about acceptable forms of I.D.? Your username does not indicate in which state you live, so none of us can be of much help in that regard.

I know that in NC, the government issued photo I.D. must be CURRENT!

Reply by Gary_CA on 3/30/09 3:08pm
Msg #282694

I think that's a really bad idea.

Boy, I hate to pick on ya, but really it's your job to know what is or isn't acceptable ID in your state.

You're an officer of the State. You know the rules you look at the ID you make a determination.

To make a note next to your seal that says "I accepted this ID but it's not quite right" is inviting disaster. And it's suggesting you're not quite professional.

First stop, lender... my guess they'll reject those docs and redraw. I mean really with all the non-performing loans floating around do you think they want a doc set in their files with questionable notarizations.

If you get past them...

Next stop... county recorder...who may well reject the DOT.


I would have made that note in my journal --if it were expired but acceptable. In CA I can use an expired ID if issued in past 5 years. If it is, I do, if it aint, I don't. END OF STORY. It happens with RM's... I've done a couple with credible witnesses.

In any case you don't want to be issuing funny looking certs with notes on them. Those things have a long shelf life.


#1 Know your own ID rules.

#2 Yes is yes, no is no...if the ID works stamp away, if not no stamp... none of this notes on the cert stuff.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/30/09 3:16pm
Msg #282696

Re: I think that's a really bad idea.

I agree. I don't see how you think a notation about your stamp covers you. The opposite is true--you are saying you are questioning the ID but notarized anyway. I was also thinking that it will probably get rejected at some level--by the tc, county recorder, etc. IMO you can't make up your own law by making a notation. They will probably decide the notarization isn't viable.

Reply by CaliNotary on 3/30/09 3:52pm
Msg #282703

Looks like Indiana's ID laws are pretty vague

Before taking acknowledgement or oath of any person, the notary public shall ascertain whether the person executing the instrument knows the contents of the instrument. If the person does not know the contents, the notary shall take steps to ensure the person knows the contents before taking the oath or acknowledgement.

In the event a notary public does not know the person presenting the instrument for notarization, the notary should do the following:
Ask the person for identification (driver's license), or

Have another person identify the party requesting notarization.

If neither option is available or satisfactory, the notary may ask the person to take an oath as to his/her identity. If these attempts at identification are unsuccessful, the notary may refuse service for his/her own protection.

http://www.notaryexpress.com/Regions/northeaststates/indiana/notarylaw.htm

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 3/30/09 4:24pm
Msg #282706

Vague is an understatement ...

Non-existent would be closer to the truth.

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/30/09 4:37pm
Msg #282708

While they may be vague or non-existent, this particular

notary advertises "I’m also licensed by Indiana Land Title Association."

It seems like I heard that was required in Indiana. I would think with said license that notary-to-signer identification skills would be a foregone conclusion. This is just my observation from afar...away, away down south where there are mosquitos the size of small bull calves.

Reply by CaliNotary on 3/30/09 6:34pm
Msg #282726

Re: Vague is an understatement ...

I didn't know there was actually a state where you could notarize something with no other ID than the person taking an oath stating that they're that person. If that's all it takes, what is even the point of having notaries in the first place?

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 3/30/09 9:21pm
Msg #282770

A document notarized in the state of Indiana

doesn't appear to be worth the paper it's printed on ... literally .... JMHO

Reply by LynnNC on 3/30/09 4:39pm
Msg #282710

Re: Looks like Indiana's ID laws are pretty vague

Can you believe this? It is up to the notary to ensure the person "knows the contents" of the insturment!

"Before taking acknowledgement or oath of any person, the notary public shall ascertain whether the person executing the instrument knows the contents of the instrument. If the person does not know the contents, the notary shall take steps to ensure the person knows the contents before taking the oath or acknowledgement."

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/30/09 4:55pm
Msg #282712

After Cali's posting of your rules, HKB...

I'll suggest to you like I suggest to Texas notaries who query me about "two credible witnesses"...forget what you have read here about California or Florida notary rules. You are not under those rules...you are under Texas rules...NOTHING about two credible witnesses in our rules...and forget what the NNA Primers say...that's not your law...those are just books with suggestions in them for 49 out of 50 states IMHO. For Ca. they might apply...but those books aren't law books. Get your law from the state you live in...not the NNA in Ca.

By the way I read your rules (and they seem plenty clear to me) there are suggested ways to do identification.

If those methods are not satisfactory to you then you may refuse service.

HKB, you didn't refuse service so you obviously must have been satisfied.

Your rules say nothing about writing something around your seal on your certificate. (Where are you getting these ideas about making notes and that you couldn't ID your person? It's not in your very brief rules.)

Forget what California's rules or the NNA books or any other authority aside from what the Indiana Notary laws say and just do your notary job there in Indiana...where the rules are as they are and nothing more, nothing less.

I don't mean to be snippy so I hope it isn't read that way...just look at your state laws and not this notary board to learn the correct way to be a notary in Indiana.

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 3/30/09 9:24pm
Msg #282771

Snippy :) n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/31/09 6:22am
Msg #282797

No, no Glenn! No snippy!

I didn't mean it! No snippy.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/30/09 11:31pm
Msg #282788

Wise advice!

And from scanning just a few of the posts here, I'd add that if you want to make notes about a notarization, the place to do that is in a journal of notarial records, NOT anywhere on a document you notarize. If your state doesn't require you to keep a journal, I recommend you do so anyway for your own protection. (The "mojo" sold on this site is my favorite and I know I have lots of company with that assessment.)

Reply by PAW on 3/31/09 7:22am
Msg #282803

Re: Wise advice!

Florida encourages the notary to make note of extenuating or special circumstances **within the notarial certificate.**

The following is an excerpt from the Florida Governor's Reference Manual for Notaries (ed. 2001, pg 36) in a discussion titled "Notarizing in Special Circumstances":

Florida law addresses some of these situations, but not all. There are, however, some commonly accepted practices for unusual notarizations. As with any other notarization, you must rely upon the law, exercise reasonable care, and use your common sense. You may also want to note the special circumstances of the notarization in the notarial certificate and in your journal (if you keep one).

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/30/09 4:20pm
Msg #282705

The worst thing you can do (IMHO) is write above your

stamp/seal about anything. But rather than listening to me flap my gums about this you'd be better served learning your state's rules and calling up your SOS rather than taking advice here.

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 3/30/09 4:39pm
Msg #282709

As someone has pointed out the Indiana Notary laws are vague to say the least.

But I do suggest you check out the notary section on your state's website:
http://www.in.gov/sos/business/notary/guide.html