Posted by James Dawson on 8/15/10 4:39pm
Msg #349014

This is a off shoot of the cancellation fee post..

Question? If a notary who goes out and does a signing only to find out the loan did NOT fund, still entitled to be paid for the notarization?

Seems to me if we have no control over the closing of the loan (unless we mess up) and yet sign and notarize Documents in the loan package, it is still a valid instrument whether or not the loan is processed. My stamp = $ paid to me. Any thoughts?

Reply by Pete/MD on 8/15/10 4:51pm
Msg #349015

Of course you should be paid! n/m

Reply by James Dawson on 8/15/10 5:01pm
Msg #349016

Re: Of course you should be paid!

So if that's the case, why aren't we? I did a signing recently with ten documents having to be notarized, if that loan doesn't fund or it cancels, the SS isn't going to pay me the amount I'm entitled too and I need to know why?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/15/10 5:04pm
Msg #349017

Because you didn't make it your policy and advise them

of that up front and get them to agree to it. You also need to check on your hiring party's policy - if it's their policy not to pay for no-signs or rescinds, and you still did the signing under THEIR terms, not yours, then you went in with eyes wide open...

Reply by James Dawson on 8/15/10 5:39pm
Msg #349026

Re: Because you didn't make it your policy and advise them

I was exploring the idea of why a person wasn't entitled to receive payment for work done.

I work for SS (more than one) who pay whether the loan funds or not so it's not my issue.

It was just a thought put out there asking for a response, pure and simple that's all.

If you know the hiring party's policy, there's no problem, it's on you.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/15/10 5:43pm
Msg #349028

Re: Because you didn't make it your policy and advise them

James...

You said "So if that's the case, why aren't we? I did a signing recently with ten documents having to be notarized, if that loan doesn't fund or it cancels, the SS isn't going to pay me the amount I'm entitled too and I need to know why?"

That's what I was responding to.

Reply by James Dawson on 8/15/10 5:47pm
Msg #349029

Okay....thinking of that, I haven't been paid yet so maybe..

we'll be taking about this later Thanks for clearing up my dusty reference!

Reply by Stephanie_CA on 8/16/10 10:42am
Msg #349127

...I also thought you were

referring to yourself James.

Reply by James Dawson on 8/16/10 12:44pm
Msg #349144

Re: ...I also thought you were - correction stephanie

Sorry for the misunderstanding. No, I'm talking about all of us who do work faithfully traveling to any location at the request of someone, doing the job as instructed, then not being paid because something we had no control over happens.

I understand Mr Trump made his millions getting people to do things for him at a negotiated fee and renegotiating at a lower offering after the job was done. I know it's not the same, just trying to get you to see where I'm coming from.

There's much more to this then answers I'm getting so I guess no one really knows the answer.

Pure and simple...I want to know if something exist that says, Code xxx, section xxx states you must pay the notary or Code xxx, section xxx states you don't have to pay the notary.

Reply by Cari on 8/16/10 8:25am
Msg #349112

its like going out and doing a loan or loan mod app.......

We get paid regardless if the BO gets approved for the loan or loan mod.

We have a written contract with the hiring party. As long as the elements of a legal contract are there, the hiring party has a legal obligation and moral duty to fulfill its promise and pay us for services rendered.

To be clear, one must also confirm the fee and payment terms or condition in that contract, whether its an independent contract or email confirmation. Either one will do, so as to avoid any potential litigation or confusion later regarding payment.

I do work, fulfill my end, pay me bro, how hard is that?

Reply by MikeC/NY on 8/15/10 5:06pm
Msg #349018

I don't think you're automagically entitled to the per document notarization fee unless you make that a condition when you accept the assignment.

State laws define the MAXIMUM you can charge, which means you can also do it for nothing - and in negotiating an assignment, the notarization fee is never part of the conversation, so you can't just spring it on them after the fact. It's assumed (at least by the hiring party) that any notarization fee is included.

I suppose you could lay it out for them up front; e.g., if the loan doesn't fund, I will be paid $X per notarized document in accordance with state law. My gut instinct is that the hiring party won't go for that, but I guess it's worth a shot...

Reply by James Dawson on 8/15/10 5:31pm
Msg #349025

Mike, you do General notary work. Aren't you entitled to be paid once you notarize Docs? What's the difference between that and notarized Docs in a loan package?

My point is, a notarization is a notarization....it is valid. A canceled loan package still has valid Docs in it. The valid notarization makes the loan package, not the other way around.

This post is just a thought and I'm just interested in what you guys think.

Reply by MikeC/NY on 8/15/10 10:30pm
Msg #349073

For general notary work, you are certainly entitled to get paid once the document is notarized (actually, before, if you're doing it right...). Loan signings are kind of fuzzy, because you're not getting paid specifically to notarize anything. If you were, you would get a fee for the notarizations plus a fee for the signing - I don;t think that has ever happened...

My point was that unless you specify all of this up front when you negotiate your fee ("If it doesn't fund, I still get $X per notarization"), you can't spring it on them after the fact.

I realize you're just throwing this out there for discussion and not looking for advice; that's my $0.02, FWIW...

Reply by James Dawson on 8/16/10 8:57am
Msg #349113

I'm with you....

THAT SOUNDS OK...I just remember reading that we are wearing two hats, one as a notary public and one as a signing agent.

Reply by Pamela Hoyle on 8/15/10 5:10pm
Msg #349019

I work for one title co in town quite a bit...my name is on the 1003....if the loan rescinds, I am a part of that "non-refundable services, once ordered/completed" just like the appraiser.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/15/10 5:23pm
Msg #349022

The 1003?

And if you mean the HUD- I don't see what section you're talking about..

Reply by Pamela Hoyle on 8/15/10 6:39pm
Msg #349039

Yes..the HUD...never respond to a post when you have just done a 4 hour carwash with the youth group in 98 degree weather.
It's not listed as such on the HUD. Possibly a NM specific doc, but titled NM Advanced Fee Agreement. Things such as appraisals and certain 3rd party fees are not refundable once ordered. Sorry for the confustion.

Reply by James Dawson on 8/15/10 6:41pm
Msg #349042

Thanks Pamela n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/15/10 7:06pm
Msg #349044

"you have just done a 4 hour carwash with the youth group in 98 degree weather"

You have my utmost sympathy and respect Pamela!!!...ugh

Reply by James Dawson on 8/15/10 6:03pm
Msg #349032

could you explain more for us...I have my name also on some 1003's but that has nothing to do with guaranteed payment, to my knowledge.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/15/10 6:04pm
Msg #349033

1003's are the application - I don't think she means that...

Reply by James Dawson on 8/15/10 6:23pm
Msg #349035

Yea...the HUD1 n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 8/15/10 6:08pm
Msg #349034

If my name is on the 1003, you have to be sure I will get my proceeds.

Reply by LKT/CA on 8/15/10 6:26pm
Msg #349036

In my opinion, the Notary is entitled to the full fee they and the hiring party agreed to. This would not only include the notarizations but travel, time, and supplies. In other words, if there are only two notarizations in the whole loan package and the agreed fee was $125, the Notary is entitled to the full $125.

Our fee is earned when we have completed the job (the docs have been shipped) and not dependent on the end result of the loan process. I do not work with companies that do not pay my full fee if the loan rescinds or cancels. I also turn down those jobs with a "no contact borrower" rule.

Reply by James Dawson on 8/15/10 6:40pm
Msg #349040

I'm in agreement. Unfortunately there are few companies that do this ( it's not like they advertise it) and those of us who know these companies and work for them are very lucky.

I've never had someone cancel, just a few re-draws but I will make sure I verify that portion of their payment policy before taking an assignment. It is absolutely ridiculous to call someone and expect them to work for free.

I have seen some SS disclaimers that state if the borrower cancels, it is the notaries responsibility to pursue payment from the borrower.

Reply by Pamela Hoyle on 8/15/10 6:41pm
Msg #349041

Yes, HUD....way too tired to post. Just did 4 hours of a carwash in 98 degree weather with the church youth group....sorry! See early reply. Possibly NM specific doc?

Reply by CopperheadVA on 8/16/10 5:58am
Msg #349092

<< Our fee is earned when we have completed the job (the docs have been shipped) and not dependent on the end result of the loan process. I do not work with companies that do not pay my full fee if the loan rescinds or cancels. >>

I agree with you. I ended a relationship with a TC that I had previously enjoyed working for, after too many no-pays even though fully executed and notarized docs had been sent back. (One time this happened because the lender canceled the loan during the RTC because it found out that the borrower had changed jobs without telling them. Another time it happened because the borrower had an issue with one of the broker docs in the package that we had spent 20 minutes on at the table and rescinded the loan during the RTC.) This TC has large packages, including 20 pages of title docs and 30 pages of broker docs, and does not pay a particularly high fee in the first place, so it's not like a higher fee could help justify the occasional no-pay, and their no-pay policy was not listed on their confirmations.

The first time it happened, I sucked it up because I *thought* we had a good relationship and I was willing to be a team player. But as it happened again and again, I began to feel taken advantage of and I politely ended our business relationship by letting them know that I can no longer facilitate closings for them until they change their policy. They haven't called since.

Reply by James Dawson on 8/15/10 6:43pm
Msg #349043

Thanks..I appreciate all your input(s) n/m

Reply by Doris_CO on 8/15/10 9:22pm
Msg #349059

Title companies, generally, will not pay if the loan rescinds or cancels because the lender doesn't pay them and the escrow account for that loan is left empty. If you're working with a SS that doesn't have enough capital to cover those exceptions where they won't get paid from title, then you probably won't get your full fee and might not get paid at all even though you're entitled to be paid for at least your notarizations and travel.

Reply by LKT/CA on 8/15/10 10:38pm
Msg #349074

<<<Title companies, generally, will not pay if the loan rescinds or cancels because the lender doesn't pay them and the escrow account for that loan is left empty.>>>

I know you mentioned an escrow "account".......but escrow companies in CA are to have $50,000 in tangible net assets and $25,000 in liquid assets. Not sure how to open a Title Insurance Company but I bet they are required to have reserves (some liquid assets), bonds and insurance, too.

http://www.escrowhelp.com/qanda-10a.html

A contract doesn't "go away" because Mary didn't pay Ellie, so now Ellie can't pay Helen. The Notary earns their fee when the job is completed and the TC is liable and should be held accountable, to include being sued and reported to the state department of insurance.

Reply by James Dawson on 8/16/10 9:07am
Msg #349114

Exactly what I am getting at..1/2 say yes 1/2 say no, but

what is it? I believe the work is done, somebody should pay us. The SS doesn't approve or disapprove the loan.....do they get paid if the loan doesn't fund?

Title company pays all the bills, right? Who determines what the notary fees should be and who selects the notary?

What part does the broker or loan officer play in selecting the Notary? Title company? SS?

Reply by James Dawson on 8/17/10 1:21pm
Msg #349335

I agree with you Lisa...I remember PAW SAYING/mentioning that we wear two hats, as a signing agent and as a notary. I can understand the signing agent not being paid based on the arguments presented but I just can't see the Notary not being paid for notarizing a document. I'm definitely missing something that will probably never be answered.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 8/16/10 12:37pm
Msg #349142

Adding MHO (i.e. more noise) ...

I wasn't going to respond because quite frankly, the debate is so stale I can't hardly chew it anymore ...but I'll have one more go at it, and this is at NO PERSON in particular, just on the topic in general...

It is my very humble little opinion that this 'payment regardless of rescission' is but one of the many headaches so often presented to title agents that they'd prefer to deal with a SS than having to deal with us. My opinion continues that the disparity between the 'contract closers' and the 'point-n-sign notaries' has grown wider and wider over the years, fueled mainly by the XYZ School of NoCanDo, and creates a fertile ground for SS's (who are more often the type of contract vendors who don't pay anyway).

With all due respect to all humans .... getting into a business such as this one, where like it or not you're part of a tangled machine bounded by myriad laws, rules, regulations, localisms & traditions and NOT having a decent understanding of all those things is (IMHO "has been") detrimental to our industry.

Pushing against title agents to pay us when escrow has no funds, pushing on them to pay us when the company that contracts with us fails to pay, pushing on them to deliver documents within a time constraint when they have no control over that, pushing on them to pay on funding rather than a 30-day net (as is pretty standard business practice), discussing things with their clients that we shouldn't be discussing and NOT providing a delivery that we should be providing because THAT simply can NOT be taught in a weekend seminar ...all adds up to what we have now. What do we have? Tons of NSA's & tons of 'signing brokers' to go along with all of them - far less fees and far more fly-by-nights who are not regulated & who CAN keep a business running while rarely paying anyone. *How does this impact our fees? If an un-funded loan still pays out, then those funds can ONLY come from spreading the loss.

A pattern of rescinds can always be traced to a particular lender OR (more often) specific L.O. These days, rescinds have gotten pretty rare. If it's an issue you want to push, I guess you have to decide what it is that you want. Do you want to work as a notary, or as a closer? Do you want to work with title agents, or SS's? Do you want to stand there with a great big bag of "I am right" and end up with nothing but a bunch of clients you don't even want?

If you only want to work in an environment where you are not encumbered by RESPA conditions or business accounting conditions or any other condition to being paid ...two choices; become an employee, or only work directly with consumers from whom you can demand cash pymt up-front, and not as a business-to-business service connected to the lending industry.

Reply by James Dawson on 8/16/10 12:58pm
Msg #349149

Re: Adding MHO (i.e. more noise) ..like your response but

not stale at all. This is the Question I was asking and it DOES not apply to just me but everyone.

Question? If a notary who goes out and does a signing only to find out the loan did NOT fund, are they still entitled to be paid for the notarization? Yes or no? From the answers it looks like we're evenly divided about this.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 8/17/10 5:22am
Msg #349266

For the sake of a good discussion, James ...

I already gave my answers to your question (or so I thought) but let's go at this from an entirely different angle ...

You have a lender & possibly a broker who provide services & man-hours to do the loan; who have lots of overhead, hourly employees with health insurance & paid vacations; lots of different people who work on different parts of every loan file. If the loan doesn't fund - the lender & broker don't see Dime One, yet still have to pay all their liabilities.

You have the Title Agent with services & man-hours into this; overhead, hourly employees, blah blah blah. If the loan doesn't fund - they don't get a dime, either, but still have to pay their bills.

The appraisal & the credit report are paid for up-front with the "application fee" because these two items are necessary to APPLY for a loan. While nobody wants to waste anyone's time/money, if all that a B says looks good - there's only one way to get the verified data on an appraisal & credit report, and that's to pay for it. These are deal-breakers, and many applications get tanked as a result of what's on those two documents. So - not only are these two items actually "application fees", they are also certainly not things that those two providers can gamble on, if they were inappropriately categorized as "closing/settlement" fees.

Now consider the Borrower - more specifically, his Federal Right to Rescind. If it applies, he has the right to rescind without penalty or cost. <--Period.

Let me ask YOU - how would YOU propose solving this perceived issue (which I don't agree IS an issue, given the rarity, I consider it just part of being a business & working in this industry), without infringing on the B's rights? It's a two-fold question: WHO do you propose to hold responsible to pay the NSA, and with WHAT money?

The obvious suggestion is that whomever HIRED the closer should PAY the closer, I'll assume you go with that. With what money? Well, I will assume you will say THEIR money. Ok, that just made YOU a liability w/out value, and there is only one way to GET the money to pay in these situations - spread the loss across all the other funding files, and the obvious conclusion to that is to cut the fees being paid.

Which is exactly what we have seen happen over the years. You keep using that *word* that's snagging me ..."entitled". Why do NSA's feel specially *entitled* over/above the Lender, Broker & Title Agent? Where does that come from?

Which is why I had earlier concluded - if you want to have guaranteed payment, become an employee or limit your services to consumer-direct, & require cash up-front.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/17/10 8:35am
Msg #349280

Both of your answers, Renee, provided great clarity to

the situation. I have had this in my mind and was in the process of writing, but tossed it in favor of your explanation, which is far beyond mine.

The only thing I would add is amplification about the payment issues.

I take a risk when I accept an appointment from anyone. The TC probably isn't going to pay if I get an appointment from them and the file ends up cancelled and/or unsigned. My risk is against the better paying terms with the TC.

With an SS I will share or split the fee for the signing. The SS has many jobs in a day, many more during the month. They have a greater spread to cover me should it be a no-sign or cancellation since they are taking up to 50% (and sometimes more) of the fee involved. If they take $100 for 100 signings, they have $10,000 to dip into to pay me cancellation fee, print fee, no sign fee, etc. If 2 closings a month do not make the final cut, that is small potatoes against the SS's intake (receivables) in order to maintain good will with their SAs. That is another reason SSs will hold ones hand throughout the process: they want few or no refusals as it will impact their bottom line.

Now, as Renee pointed out, TCs are lowering fees so that when a SA comes along saying I need print fee, etc., the TC will have generated a few additional dollars to take care of that item. But, they have lowered their fee paid to everyone as there really are no funds to pay without doing so. So, instead of their funds going to a SS, they are now going to their "special cancellation" fund in order to pay for no signs, etc. They also end up with an in-house SS, so to speak, and this/these persons have to be paid from this set aside as well. Hence, the SA is in another low-pay situation because of essentially the SA's greed, fear of loss, etc.

Did the SA cause this to happen? When I see "entitled" I have to conclude that that is just the reason why. The only people I really see that are entitled during the entire process is the borrower. He has a whole list (by law) of what he is entitled to, but that is a different conversation.

Essentially, one must decide if they are willing to take risks. That is what any business owner is doing - taking the risk that they will beat the odds and be successful.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 8/17/10 9:57am
Msg #349286

I agree with Renee/Juli

And also base it on the knowledge they have so eloquently articulated, and especially the knowledge that these situations are rare, and I acknowledge them as a cost of doing business.
The only caveat for me would be, if this was happening frequently with a particular LO/Lender/TC.
I absoultely understand and agree that the occasional no-sign or recession is just another cost of doing business in this field, however, there is a limit.
And I've had to "fire" a few hiring parties.
In previous situations I've had to draw the line, saying I won't be accepting any additional closings from your company because of:.

Excess No-signs (for any reason, including wrong figures)
Excess Recissions

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/18/10 2:34am
Msg #349423

Lots of wisdom here from Renee, imo...

and from Julie and Misty, as well. I have just a couple of comments to add.

To directly address your question, James, we negotiate for a signing as a package deal - including all activities involved. Splitting out the notarizations after the fact is changing the terms of the agreement. That they end up with a valid notarization (probably for a now unusable document) is irrelevant.

Secondly, I'd just like to re-emphasize one of the points Renee made, which was that the risk of not getting paid for a rescinded package should be included in our fees. This is a primary reason why we should have different (i.e. higher) fees when dealing directly with a title company. (There are others, but this is probably the most important one.) The signing services should also be taking this risk into consideration when they bid for contracts with a tc - and that, imo, is one of the ways they justify their cut of the fee for work that we do. Sylvia, for example, always said that she pays her notaries regardless of the outcome of a signing. That's a part of overhead. When we work directly with the tc, we are the ones taking that risk. We should be getting paid what they tc is paying to the ss. (And I'm not talking about the ones who underbid just to get the business, then try to make up for it by not paying or shorting pay, etc., etc.)

As for this topic being stale, I imagine that comment was because it's been discussed so often in the past, but I have to agree that it needed mentioning again. It's been a while and apparently this is a concept that has gotten lost in all the other issues that we've had to deal with over the last few years. So thanks for bringing it up again.