Posted by DaveCA/CA on 1/7/11 5:41pm
Msg #367508

Notary journal entries for CA

I know this has been debated and I tried finding it through search. Can anyone tell me where it says that each signature notarized needs to be a separate journal entry? I love the journal from Harry, here on Notary Rotary. It is the best ever. I have been having people sign my journal once per signing. I check the individual doc types in journal. I hope I am making sense. Please tell me the code # that says it has to be a separate line for each act. Thanks

Reply by Christine L. Reeves on 1/7/11 5:45pm
Msg #367509

Look on line in The Secretary of State laws. It is in there.

Reply by Stephanie_CA on 1/7/11 5:47pm
Msg #367510

Re: notary journal entries for CA #8206 n/m

Reply by James Dawson on 1/7/11 5:56pm
Msg #367511

Dave this is an issue that is confusing to say the least, understanding varies across the board. Rather than take someone else s advice (no flames please-LOL) how about checking it out in the CA notary handbook. Afterall it will be your decision on what to do...all said and done. My .02

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/7/11 6:23pm
Msg #367516

It's CA Government Code 8206(a), and the "each act per line" requirement is inherent specifically in 8206(a)(2)(A) where it refers to "each official act."

This was further clarified in a memo to Education Vendors about a year ago that included notes from a meeting they had. Harry posted that PDF file here.

But specifically it stated:

"Q, When multiple notarial acts are performed, is it acceptable for a diagonal line to be drawn
from the first document to the last document in the notary public journal with a single signature
covering all transactions? In addition, can ditto (“) marks be used in the journal?

A. Government Code section 8206 requires that the notary public's journal include all the
information for "each official act." Therefore, each act would include the date, time, type of
each official act, character of the instrument, signature, type of identification, fee, and
thumbprint (if applicable) on a separate line for each act."

I do one line per act. My reasoning is pretty simple on this. We're told that we have to record certain info for each act. If there are 10 notarizations in a loan package... that's 10 different acts. Pretty simple.

It's also important in case we are asked to provide a line copy of a journal entry. State law requires anyone asking for a copy supply the name, date and nature of the document before you can supply them the copy. If they ask for the line affiliated with a Deed of Trust, you can't give them one affiliated with a Power of Attorney. If you use multiple acts in a single line entry, you'd be doing just that.

Reply by James Dawson on 1/7/11 6:56pm
Msg #367521

...>>>>>>>>If there are 10 notarizations in a loan package... that's 10 different acts. Pretty simple.<<<

Two borrowers, Ten thumbprints each?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/7/11 7:06pm
Msg #367523

WEll... no... I should have clarified that was assuming a single borrower. If there are two borrowers, that's 20 entries of course.... or as many as it applies given the file. That will likely be less since with couples there are usually individual affidavits that are meant for each individual.

Reply by janCA on 1/8/11 10:51am
Msg #367578

Thumbprints only on the required docs, not all documents.

I have found that many times, when I am doing a signing, the borrower, even though I have stated, thumbprint only on DOT and/or POA, they start thumbprinting down the line because the prior notary had them do that. I tell them that's not necessary, only certain documents need a thumbprint in the journal.

Reply by DaveCA/CA on 1/7/11 9:10pm
Msg #367532

I really appreciate all of the responses. Please allow me to go farther with my thoughts. I guess I'm not sold on separate lines just yet.

1. What if I have them sign all of the notarized documents at the same time (within a minute of each other) and I give the oath at that time?

2. If we are supposed to do separate line items, do you break down fee for each act? If not, then isn't that a violation?

3. I have had to supply a copy of a journal page before and I just used white out for the part that didn't apply. (Probably about 6 or 7 years ago with Harry's Journal) Went fine.

Again, thanks for being patient with me. Perhaps I'm fighting it in my own mind. I do lots of signings and I just can't see blowing through so many journals. They are only 8 bux here at Notary Rotary.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/7/11 11:16pm
Msg #367539

TO me, it doesn't matter. Each act gets it's own line, no matter what. The time I note is the time of the appointment for all of the entries... I don't note the exact time they signed each one. Generally, I issue the oath at the very beginning and I phrase it so that they understand there are multiple documents they'll be signing under oath. As I get to each of those, I just quickly say, "This is one of the documents you're signing under oath..."

I'm different from many notaries in that I itemize my invoices --- down to each signature. That's the amount I write in my journal. The amount will vary based on the total fee I'm collecting. I itemize because I want my invoices to match to match the journal in case there are ever questions about me overcharging. For those companies that don't want my invoices, that's fine... I make one up anyway, even if it is just for my own records. We are required to keep these records whether or not the customer wants a receipt or invoice.

Let's say you collect $150 for a loan package that had 4 notarizations. The maximum you could record in your journal is $10 each for the notarization itself. What about the other $110? How does that breakdown? I break everything down. I do record the invoice number and the service name in the journal so I can reference the total in the future... but I've stopped writing the total job in the journal entry, since anything over $10 per signature is not a part of the notary fee and not part of the required record. However, I use the invoice number just in case I get asked for it.

I wouldn't have used white out on your journal entry copy. When you certify a copy of your journal, you're certifying that it is a true copy... if you've altered the copy from the original, you're essentially certifying something under your seal that isn't true -- and IMO, that's a good way to get your commission revoked.

What if you had to present your journal in court and it became evidence? How would you explain why you certified a copy of something that was clearly not an true copy?

I don't know why people fight this. THe Secretary of State has outright said, "Therefore, each act would include the date, time, type of each official act, character of the instrument, signature, type of identification, fee, and thumbprint (if applicable) on a separate line for each act."

I'm not sure there's much to argue with there.

Reply by DaveCA/CA on 1/8/11 11:49am
Msg #367593

Marian, thanks for your information. It sounds great. One more thought and I'll leave it alone for now. What do you do if you do a signing for $100 and it is for a couple and they both have 7 signatures to be notarized? How do you do the fee in your journal?

I understand your theory on how I handled the journal entry. I should have said that I made a copy before I changed it. Either way, you are right that. Thank you.

Like I said before, I appreciate all of the feedback. It's a new year and I'm wanting to do everything right.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/8/11 11:40pm
Msg #367708

Dave... well, I wouldn't do a loan signing for $100 like that.


But if I did, I would simply adjust the fees down. Despite what I've heard some instructors state, we *can* charge less than $10 a signature. In fact, when I'm notarizing multiple signatures at the same time, I often charge less per signature.

Some will say that's not smart because of the SE tax exemption... but I don't take that exemption so it's not an issue for me.

A typical package for me starts at $110-$125, which includes up to 10 signatures notarized. I charge $5.00 for each additional one. But that's my signing agent fee, and doesn't include extra charges for extra travel (15+ miles), printing of edocs, faxbacks, etc. The base fee covers the notarizations, packaging and delivery of documents and some time.

Like I said, I account for things a bit differently... it works for me, but I know others do it very differently. I am most concerned about the record keeping and never being accused of over-charging. I'm that way because I saw it happen to somebody. The notary was sued for overcharging. She charged $175 for her services on a package that had 6 notarizations. The borrowers insisted that they should have only paid $60 and the court wanted to see an accounting of the notary's fees. She couldn't provide it because she said it was "all-inclusive" and an industry standard to pay a set rate. The judge ruled against her, and cited state law that says public officials must provide a receipt for services on request. He pointed out that this was printed in our handbooks... and it is Gov't Code 6109:

"§ 6109. Receipt of fees; written account; officer liability
Every officer of a county or judicial district, upon receiving any fees for official duty or
service, may be required by the person paying the fees to make out in writing and to deliver
to the person a particular account of the fees. The account shall specify for what the fees,
respectively, accrued, and the officer shall receipt it. If the officer refuses or neglects to do so
when required, he is liable to the person paying the fees in treble the amount so paid."

That's why I break my fees down for every little thing... so that there is never any question what I'm charging for or why. Even for general notarizations, I clearly write out the different charges for "Mobile Service Fees" and each and every notarial act, including a reference to the document and name of the individual. Overkill? Maybe... but I'd rather overdo it than not.

Reply by janCA on 1/9/11 1:28pm
Msg #367742

Who hired the notary? Borrowers or SS/TC?

This is very subjective. If the notary was hired by the borrowers, then she did overcharge. If she was hired by an SS and/or TC and or Bank, her fee was appropriate. I'm assuming she was hired by the borrowers and obviously does not know her state laws concerning fees. Her bad!

Reply by LKT/CA on 1/7/11 7:02pm
Msg #367522

Here's the reason I am an advocate for separate entries for each notarial act. About 2 years ago an attorney from another state hired me to notarize her client's signature for a big lawsuit she was handling. I notarized the client's signature on 19 identical documents. I had nineteen entries, nineteen client signatures, and nineteen thumbprints. I emailed an invoice to the attorney's assistant. I did receive a check for $190 ten days later.

But......what if the attorney was unscrupulous, didn't want to pay and demanded proof that I notarized her client's signature 19 times and suppose I only had one line entry with just a notation that I notarized client's signature on 19 identical documents? The attorney could claim I only notarized one signature and made up the notation about 19 identical documents. Suppose the client was also unscrupulous and sided with the attorney?

It would be my word against the attorney and the client - what evidence could I show a judge that would prove I notarized 19 signatures? By recording each notarization separately, I had concrete proof that I notarized signatures for 19 identical documents.

Separate line entries with separate client signatures and separate thumbprints is irrefutable proof that you notarized someone's signature multiple times, whether on different documents or identical documents. Law or no law, I STRONGLY advise Notaries to MAKE THE TIME and always record separate notarial acts. Journals are cheap - $20 and hold 1,000 line entries.

One way I save time in recording multiple notarizations is to do one complete line entry - name, address, date/time of notarization, ID info, type of notarial act and title of document. Then for the rest of the line entries I just put the client's name, title of doc and type of act. I go back later and copy the address, ID info, etc.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/7/11 7:09pm
Msg #367524

That's what I do as well... I go back later and fill in the redundant details so they aren't waiting on me at the table. But, I always fill them out completely, never use dittos or diagonal lines. I met a notary this week that was still using the diagonal line bit and had no idea she wasn't supposed to do that. It's just a very bad habit that a lot of notaries still have. It saves time, but as Lisa points out...it's like playing with fire.

Reply by James Dawson on 1/7/11 7:14pm
Msg #367525

Re: To Dave only please!

OMarian and LKT are two VERY GOOD notaries, so what do you think you should do now that you've read the handbook and read these post?

Reply by Blueink_TN on 1/7/11 8:51pm
Msg #367529

I used the Not Rot Modern Journal for four years before moving to TN (BTW still using it here) and per the regulations, I packed up all my journals and mailed them to the Sec of State (CA) . Never heard a word about my journal choice...