Posted by HisHughness on 1/14/11 8:33pm
Msg #368732

Signed an Indian couple a couple of nights ago.

Throughout, the wife printed her name. I didn't think much about it; Mexican nationals often sign in block letters, I gather because they are not taught cursive in school. Thought the same might have applied to the wife also. On the next to the last document, the wife signed in cursive.

I said, "Wait a minute, where did that come from?" Checked her driver's license; sure enough, her signature was in cursive.

"Why?" I asked.

"You told me to sign just like it was printed there," she said.

Anybody know of an opening for an OldePharte as a Wal-Mart greeter?

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 1/14/11 9:22pm
Msg #368737

I had nearly the same problem when I assited some Indians too. They had a very hard time understanding to sign in cursive. It was difficult with the language barrier..finally one of the sons explained that in India they dont use cursive..had them sign as they usually did.

Reply by Blueink_TN on 1/14/11 9:24pm
Msg #368738

LOL - I'm sure that made you smile Gotta love people!

Reply by Susan Fischer on 1/15/11 12:37am
Msg #368754

"Exactly as printed" is pretty clear, especially if English

is your second language.

It's a common interpretation, and "signature" is not much help as traditionally defined. I saw the word "name written in one's hand," and similar definitions, but didn't see "cursive" used once.

I can understand the confusion.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 1/15/11 6:46am
Msg #368759

I started saying, "Sign exactly as your name is typed"

because I had the same problem with people thinking that I was telling them to print their name!

Reply by jba/fl on 1/15/11 7:13am
Msg #368760

If you had checked the ID first and noticed how they affixed their signature to it, you would have known what to expect.

After I look at the id, I check it against their first signature - If they sign with a squiggle, then I expect to see a squiggle; if they sign with a symbol, I expect to see a symbol. If they sign John Doe instead of John X Doe I expect to see John Doe signed on their ID.

I am looking for matches to support what is requested: have them sign as printed on the docs. Their signature is their signature. I have never been questioned yet or had any discrepancy issues. It is, to my way of thinking, a foolproof method.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 1/15/11 7:52am
Msg #368763

"Hello, welcome to Target ... I mean Wallyworld" ? n/m

Reply by Barbara Taylor on 1/15/11 9:00am
Msg #368770

THIS IS TOOOO FUNNY -- LOL

Living in America

Reply by Cari on 1/15/11 9:42am
Msg #368789

answer: why most US jobs are being sent overseas...LMAO n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 1/15/11 11:34am
Msg #368804

This has nothing to do with race...

<<<Signed an Indian couple a couple of nights ago....Throughout, the wife printed her name. I didn't think much about it; Mexican nationals often sign in block letters, I gather because they are not taught cursive in school. Thought the same might have applied to the wife also. <<<On the next to the last document, the wife signed in cursive.>>>

I've had borrowers of ALL races (white, black, hispanic, and asian) print as their signature which is why I ALWAYS, ALWAYS get a copy of their ID to return with the package** whether the TC requests it or not**. This way, the TC is not calling me about the borrower's signature - they have borrower's ID copy to immediately compare to the documents.

<<<On the next to the last document, the wife signed in cursive.>>>

Which is why the title of my post is "This has nothing to do with race..."

I also agree with jba/fl....I look at the ID signature while entering ID info in my journal and then compare it to the first doc signature.

Reply by HisHughness on 1/15/11 1:05pm
Msg #368811

Re: This has nothing to do with race...

Who said it did, Lisa? That certainly wasn't part of my post, and if that is the implication of your post, then I resent it.

I think all U.S. schools teach cursive. That apparently is not the case in some Mexican schools, as I noted in my post, and I surmised that it might also be the case in some Indian schools. Where in that do you find the genesis of a racist comment? If the progeny of a Kansas missionary went to a New Delhi school that did not teach cursive, then unless they taught themselves or got it from some other source, they're not going to be able to write in cursive. Race had zero to do with it.

On another matter, I have been doing this for going on nine years now, and the <only> times I have ever encountered a printed name as a signature was either from a Mexican national or a nationalized citizen from Mexico, except for the rare occasions when the signer is essentially illiterate and his printed name is basically all he can write.

Reply by LKT/CA on 1/15/11 1:44pm
Msg #368812

Re: This has nothing to do with race...

<<<Where in that do you find the genesis of a racist comment? >>>

First of all, I didn't say your post was raCIST, I said the this has nothing to do WITH race.....the essense of your story was that the wife misunderstood your directions, I get that. But the title of the thread mentioned race and so did the post itself.

Had your post ONLY said this: <<<Throughout, the wife printed her name. On the next to the last document, the wife signed in cursive. I said, "Wait a minute, where did that come from?" Checked her driver's license; sure enough, her signature was in cursive. "Why?" I asked. "You told me to sign just like it was printed there," she said.>>> then your post would just have been about a misunderstanding in the directions you gave the wife.

But the title the thread is this: Signed an INDIAN couple....

And the post said this: <<<Mexican nationals often sign in block letters...I gather because they are not taught cursive in school. Thought that might have applied to the wife also.>>>

<<<...if that is the implication of your post, then I resent it.>>>

And I resent when people unnecessarily mention race (it has no bearing whatsoever on the story at hand) - thus generalizing and stereotyping. Your post could have been about ANYONE.....why you felt the need to mention Indians and Mexican nationals is anyone's guess.

<<< I have ever encountered a printed name as a signature was either from a Mexican national or a nationalized citizen from Mexico, except for the rare occasions when the signer is essentially illiterate and his printed name is basically all he can write.>>>

Then you could have simply said that the only time you encountered this is with a certain racial group and asked if anyone encountered this at all with ANY racial group or is their experience also with a certain racial group.

Again, I didn't say your post was raCIST....I only wrote about mentioning race, as what you wrote applies to all races and may not have anything to do with one's racial makeup, nationality or culture.

Reply by HisHughness on 1/15/11 2:04pm
Msg #368820

Lisa, you're really beginning to bug me now

Check your map. <India> is a place, a country. <Mexico> is a place, a country. They have citizens, just like this country, the United States. People from those countries are called Indians and Mexicans. An Indian born in Mexico would be an Indian by nationality; to avoid confusion with Mexican nationals whose <racial> heritage is primarily native South American, he probably would be called an Indian national, rather than just an Indian.

The implication of your post was that by mentioning the nationality of the couple I was signing, I was attributing the way she signed to her racial heritage, and that by doing that, I was in some way impugning her abilities because of her race.

Now that you have made yourself plain, let me make myself plain: I do indeed resent the implication. You are so far off base, you're not even in the ballpark.

And, just as an aside, let me note that my last wife's name was Sanchez. She was blue-eyed and an American national, though her cultural heritage was Mexican and her racial stock was both Mayan and European. I never had a problem distinguishing the difference.

Reply by LKT/CA on 1/15/11 2:32pm
Msg #368821

Re: Lisa, you're really beginning to bug me now

<<<Lisa, you're really beginning to bug me now...>>>

Hugh, ask me if I CARE....

<<<The implication of your post was that by mentioning the nationality of the couple I was signing, I was attributing the way she signed to her racial heritage, and that by doing that, I was in some way impugning her abilities because of her race.>>>

No, the implication of my post is that the mentioning of race *generalizes and stereotypes*. I PLAINLY said you "mentioned" race and "mentioning" race has no bearing on the story so why "mention" it? Resent all you want......and I resent your attempt at making a Federal case out of what isn't.

This sure has struck a serious nerve with you, Hugh.....hmmmm...., I've run into this before when someone has such a RABID reaction to the question of "why mention race when it has no bearing on the story".......and I know the answer.

Reply by HisHughness on 1/15/11 2:58pm
Msg #368826

Re: Lisa, you're really beginning to bug me now

Lisa, you are attempting to transform ignorance on your part into bigotry on my part.

I think I'm just going to let you marinate in your own benighted shallowness.

Reply by LKT/CA on 1/15/11 3:07pm
Msg #368827

Re: Lisa, you're really beginning to bug me now

<<<Lisa, you are attempting to transform ignorance on your part into bigotry on my part....I think I'm just going to let you marinate in your own benighted shallowness.>>>

Puh...leez !!! No one can be "transformed" into a bigot from notary message board, LOL!!...Your post is worthless drivel, just to get in the last word. And YOU can marinate in your own benighted lunacy.

Reply by SueW/Tn on 1/15/11 4:28pm
Msg #368828

I've also said "sign exactly as printed" and got the

same result. I changed my presentation because in fact the BO did exactly what I asked them to do...in a sense. I had to laugh at myself, sometimes the simpliest of things....

Reply by LKT/CA on 1/15/11 6:35pm
Msg #368837

Re: I've also said "sign exactly as printed" and got the

If the borrower's signature is totally illegible, I usually remain silent. If their signature is readable, I will say something like the following: "Mr. or Mrs. Borrower, I see on your ID that you sign your name without your middle initial. Since the documents have your middle initial typed in your name, the Title Co. would like for you to include your middle initial when you sign your name.

I get one of two responses....either it's "Okay, no problem" or "I NEVER sign my name that way". I just say "Okay" to the latter response and make sure to include a copy of their ID - that way the TC sees that their signature and ID match and any further concerns on the TC's part can be taken up directly with the borrower.

Reply by kathy/ca on 1/15/11 8:15pm
Msg #368854

I have been told by more than 1 TC to not get a copy of ID

unless instructed to, in fact it was said in a way that sounded like we have no right to ask for a copy of the signers ID. Have you ever run into that scenario Lisa? I am just curious because you said you ALWAYS get it.

Reply by LKT/CA on 1/15/11 8:39pm
Msg #368857

Re: I have been told by more than 1 TC to not get a copy of ID

No Kathy, I have never had a TC say not to get a copy of the borrower's ID. There was one signing I had where the borrower had four names on her driver's license, and she signed the signature on the license with only two names. The loan paperwork had three of the four names and I mentioned about including the three names on the paperwork in the signature and she flat out refused (nicely, though). She said, "I only sign two names, as my license shows and I'm only signing with two on the papers." I said, "Okay" and included a copy of her ID with the docs. Never heard from the TC....was paid promptly for the signing.

Reply by jba/fl on 1/15/11 9:06pm
Msg #368859

I have been told by a lender not get a copy of ID -

usually RM's. Not for refi's though. But most of the time the confirmation says nothing about the requirement one way or the other. I confirm appt. most of the time prior to getting the docs so the request for ID is done at time of confirming appt. If it turns out I don't need, then the BO now has a copy for emergency purposes. (that's what I tell them)

Reply by rengel/CA on 1/16/11 11:35am
Msg #368883

@Hugh

I have the feeling that the term "race" is being confused with the word, "Nationality". You were talking about the nationality of the signer, and LKT took it to mean the race of the signer.
I didn't see any offense in your post and I'm sorry LKT took offense at it.

My .02

Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/17/11 4:13pm
Msg #368965

Re: @Hugh

I agree. Actually, I think this issue is often more about culture than even nationality.

I've just found that the concept of what a "signature" is varies from place to place - and sometimes from person to person. That doesn't make anyone right or wrong or "weird" if their concept differs from ours. It just means that we have a responsibility to flesh out the issue a bit to come to a place where they're comfortable with whatever they put on the page and that it ends up being something the lender will accept - and that we can accept, of course.

What I've done on a number of occasions is do a kind of test run if there seems to be any confusion up front or if the first signature shows that they may not have gotten the concept. By that, I just mean that I have them sign on a piece of scrap paper (which I leave with them later). Then we can discuss options and ramifications. Seems to work well for me.

Reply by BrendaTx on 1/16/11 4:05pm
Msg #368892

I don't get the ire in you post, Lisa.

I dealt with a delightful Nigerian couple a few years ago and he had a typical Nigerian signature that was a beautiful block of scroll work. "Nigerian" adds to the comprehension of those remarks.

I know several Indians...know them well. It's perfectly acceptable to them for it to be noted that they are from India.