Posted by dawn/IL on 1/31/11 11:19am
Msg #370666

Taxes

Good Morning Everyone! I have a question, i'm confused!!! when doing signings i note how many documents are in the package, and how many notarizations i have to do, should i be counting how many times I have to sign and/or how many times my borrowers sign? I am not sure what matters in terms of taxes. for example, am i deducting the # of notarizations or the amt of signature and if so mine or the borrowers. In illinois i can charge $1 per signature, Per Page, If I did a 138 page signing and there were 2 borrowers who had to sign twelve pages each and I had to notarize 5 pages, would I note 138 page documents with 5 notarizations, and 24 signatures? Thank you in advance for your help in unconfusing me :-)

Reply by Art_MD on 1/31/11 11:26am
Msg #370667

Per your handbook, you can charge $1 per Notorial act. Nothing about page count, nothing about your signature. Keep count of your notorial acts. Read definition of notorial act. My interpretation, would be you can charge $2 if two people sign an affidavit or jurat. You may read the definition differently.

Art

Reply by dawn/IL on 1/31/11 1:21pm
Msg #370711

I think I understand it now, thank you to all who responded, your comments were insightful!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/31/11 11:28am
Msg #370668

I don't believe you can charge by signature - it's by notarial act...per your handbook, page 11-12:

"3-104. Maximum Fee.
(a) Except as provided in subsection (b) of this Section, the maximum fee in this State is $1 for any notarial act performed and, until July 1, 2013, up to $25 for any notarial act performed pursuant to Section 3-102.
(b) Fees for a notary public, agency, or any other person who is not an attorney or an accredited representative filling out immigration forms shall be limited to the following:
(1) $10 per form completion;
(2) $10 per page for the translation of a non-English language into English where such translation is required for immigration forms;
(3) $1 for notarizing;
(4) $3 to execute any procedures necessary to obtain a document required to complete immigration forms; and
(5) A maximum of $75 for one complete application."

http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/publications/pdf_publications/ipub16.pdf

"should i be counting how many times I have to sign and/or how many times my borrowers sign? I am not sure what matters in terms of taxes."

The amount you can exempt from Self-Employment tax is the statutory notary fees you are allowed to charge - but that's an exemption from SE taxes ONLY - it's still all subject to federal income tax.

Reply by Cari on 1/31/11 12:24pm
Msg #370677

Per notarial act = per signature - my interpretation.

Also, the below ONLY applies to those that CAN by approval of the Immigration Board...has nothing to do with regular fees we can charge...

Our IL SOS handbook is lacking to say the least, and leaves many to interpret very loosely....
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"b) Fees for a notary public, agency, or any other person who is not an attorney or an accredited representative filling out immigration forms shall be limited to the following:
(1) $10 per form completion;
(2) $10 per page for the translation of a non-English language into English where such translation is required for immigration forms;
(3) $1 for notarizing;
(4) $3 to execute any procedures necessary to obtain a document required to complete immigration forms; and
(5) A maximum of $75 for one complete application."

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/31/11 12:44pm
Msg #370689

"Per notarial act = per signature - my interpretation."

Not true - if you have 3 signers and one acknowledgement, that's one notarial act - a notarial act is not a signature - it's your certificate or authorized duty.

If you're authorized to charge per signature (like CA) then it's per signature.

Reply by Cari on 1/31/11 1:11pm
Msg #370708

it is rare that I notarize group signatures on 1 ack...

I use a sep ack per signature...sorry for not being clearer...

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 1/31/11 1:29pm
Msg #370717

I disagree, Linda

Although I do follow the directives of our Governor's office - who maintain that a notarial act is the affixation of one notarial seal on a paper document - I disagree. There are many instances where only one seal is affixed, but more than one notarial act is performed.

Here is an example I've given before. A properly drafted will in Florida requires the acknowledgment of the testator and the oaths of two witnesses. Only one certificate is signed and sealed by the notary. This requires three separate journal entries and three separate acts (although some notaries, including myself, administer one oath for both witnesses). However, I still have to ID three people, witness three people sign, and complete three journal entries. The only thing that is not done in triplicate is the affixing of the notary's signature and seal. One certificate, but three acts. Under the interpretation of the Governor's office, Florida notaries can only charge $10 for the one certificate, even though three acts were performed.

The affixing of the seal is not a notarial act. An acknowledgment is a notarial act. An oath is a notarial act. Each time you administer an oath should count as one separate notarial act. If two people appear before me, and I swear each of them in separately, I should be entitled to $20, even if I'm only completing one certificate. Not so in Florida, but other states (like California) calculate their fees in that manner.

Again, I'm not saying that I don't follow the SOS directives, which say $10 per seal. But I disagree with their interpretation.

(P.S. The Florida Governor's office advises that a notary can circumvent those restrictions by simply attaching a loose certificate for each signer. Not something that I would ever do, but the Governor's office says this is OK.)

Reply by PAW on 1/31/11 2:07pm
Msg #370725

Re: I disagree, Linda

>>> Here is an example I've given before. A properly drafted will in Florida requires the acknowledgment of the testator and the oaths of two witnesses. Only one certificate is signed and sealed by the notary. <<<

Huh? If you are taking an acknowledgment (from the testator) and giving an oath (to the witnesses), that is two separate acts and require two notarial certificates. You cannot have one certificate for both acts. (Hybrid certificates are not authorized nor approved.)

IMPO, a properly drafted Will in Florida has at least two certificates: an acknowledgment for the testator and a jurat for the witnesses.

On another note, if you are notarizing the signatures on a Will, do you really give the oath to each witness separately? Not saying that you can't or shouldn't, but I have never witnessed a notary or clerk administering the oath to each witness separately.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 1/31/11 2:25pm
Msg #370731

Paul - it requires one certificaet

See Florida Statutes 732.503. That section dictates the form to be used for self-proof of a will. At my boss' instruction and in compliance with the statutes, this is the certificate I have to use:

Acknowledged and subscribed before me by the testator, (type or print testator’s name), who is personally known to me or who has produced (state type of identification—see s. 117.05(5)(b)2.) as identification, and sworn to and subscribed before me by the witnesses, (type or print name of first witness) who is personally known to me or who has produced (state type of identification—see s. 117.05(5)(b)2.) as identification and (type or print name of second witness) who is personally known to me or who has produced (state type of identification—see s. 117.05(5)(b)2.) as identification, and subscribed by me in the presence of the testator and the subscribing witnesses, all on (date).

(Signature of Officer)

(Print, type, or stamp commissioned name and affix official seal)


And to answer your question, I answer one oath for both witnesses. But I still have to ID two people and complete two separate entries.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/31/11 2:40pm
Msg #370734

732.503 provides for the will to be self-proved

either way - two certificates or the one you cited. I personally prefer the other format here

http://notaries.dos.state.fl.us/education/images/will2.gif

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 1/31/11 2:42pm
Msg #370736

The reason that form was done away with is because

the testator must *acknowledge* his signature, not take an oath. The previous certificate had only oaths which contradicted the statutes.

Reply by PAW on 2/1/11 9:03am
Msg #370829

Re: Paul - it requires one certificaet

>>> See Florida Statutes 732.503. That section dictates the form to be used for self-proof of a will. <<<

The statutes do not "dictate" the format or syntax, but states that the certificate should be "in substantially the following form" as shown.

However, as you have noted many times, lawyers and legislators do not necessary follow the principles and practices of notary law. As far as I know, only CA prohibits the use of hybrid certificates (because the statute prescribes strict wording of the certificates). I do believe the NNA and the ASN both recommend not using hybrids but to actually make two separate certificates, but that's not our choice to make. The attorneys that I have worked with over the past couple of decades always created two certificates, an acknowledgment and a jurat, when both acts are required. This also somewhat clears up the confusion of what exactly constitutes a "notarial act" under Florida law.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/1/11 9:34am
Msg #370831

FWIW, I would never swap out or add a certificate

to a will. I will notarize what's there; or send them to a lawyer.

In Texas - The testator acknowledges to the witnesses that he/she signed for purposes therein. The witnesses swear they are over the age of 14, competent and that they witnessed the will signing at the request of the signer and they saw the signer sign.

Come to think of it, that certificate is usually a hybrid.

I had not given that much thought before...

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 2/1/11 11:04am
Msg #370836

To each his own - the statutes do not prohibit hybrid

certificates, and in fact, section 732.503 seems to hint towards them being acceptable. I prefer to follow the statutory forms.

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 1/31/11 1:00pm
Msg #370698

Cari- the item you referenced in your post is regarding Immigration forms, it has not bearing on general notarizations.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/31/11 1:03pm
Msg #370700

Re: Taxes...think that's my fault, Sheila

IL allows notaries to charge specific fees for immigration form work - I included it in my first post since it's a statutory fee that may not be subject to SE taxes...

Reply by Cari on 1/31/11 1:36pm
Msg #370720

Sheila..I know...re-posted quote for reference....

...."Also, the below ONLY applies to those that CAN by approval of the Immigration Board...has nothing to do with regular fees we can charge..."

Reply by MW/VA on 1/31/11 1:23pm
Msg #370713

I don't know if your question is for federal or state taxes. Regardless, IMO there is no need to keep track of how many pages of docs there are or how many signatures. I count the # of ntz (my abbrev. for notarizations) & keep a record of that. We are the only profession that is allowed an exemption from Self-Employment Taxes (federal). Since that is based on Profit, I always have more than enough to not pay any SE taxes (taking exemption for # of ntz & $5 in VA). That is significant, since SE tax amts. to 15.6%. That's over & above any income taxes that are due. It's been discussed a lot. Some feel they shouldn't take the deduction, because it will affect their ss benefits down the road. I think someone here recommended taking that money instead & putting it into an IRA. As always, it's best to consult with your accountant and/or tax advisor. I hope this helps to clarify what you need for record-keeping for tax purposes.

Reply by dawn/IL on 1/31/11 1:29pm
Msg #370716

My question was for federal tax purposes and your response was exactly what i was hoping for...hence; short, sweet and to the point!!! Thank you for being clear, you helped me to be unconfused. Have a lovely day and Thank You!

Reply by MW/VA on 1/31/11 2:14pm
Msg #370729

I'm glad I was able to help you clear that up. I've heard plenty of stories to accountants who knew nothing about the exemption from SE for notaries. It is a real bonus for this profession, that's for sure!

Reply by Sha/CA on 1/31/11 10:24pm
Msg #370791

Re:taxes: IRS code?

After my first year as a SA, I had to tell my CPA about the SE tax exemption. The next year the same CPA, "forgot" about the exemption and we had to file an amended return. Every year since then, I have reminded him. Does anyone have a link to the IRS code for the SE tax exemption? I could just staple a copy of it to the front of my tax worksheet for my CPA, instead of having to tell him.

Reply by Sha/CA on 1/31/11 10:31pm
Msg #370793

Does anyone know of a link to the IRS code that explains the SE tax exemption?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/1/11 4:33am
Msg #370804

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p334/ch05.html#en_US_2010_publink100025222

Under "Guidelines for Selected Occupations"

"Notary public. Fees you receive for services you perform as a notary public are reported on Schedule C or C-EZ. These payments are not subject to self-employment tax (see the instructions for Schedule SE (Form 1040)). "

All due respect - if you have to remind your CPA for a third year in a row it may be time to find a new CPA..