Posted by Moneyman/TX on 1/20/11 2:53pm
Msg #369390
Who is REALLY paying the SS companies?
Yes, I realize the actual checks come from the TC to them. However, I propose that it is the individual NSA that accepts work from them that is actually paying the SS company. He does so by giving away part of his profits.
Obviously, there are some good SS and some bad SS companies out there. Putting aside the “good” v. “bad” ones issue, I am talking about the “middle-man” position that these companies, overall, have created for themselves for this discussion.
Let’s look at the 2 examples below (#1 & #2):
(#1) TC calls the SA directly and they agree upon a fee for a signing. Let’s say that fee is $150 for a local signing with edocs. TC sends confirmation email and makes another call to SA when docs are ready. 2 phone calls & 2 emails from TC.
The difference between the SA’s true overhead & expenses (some tend to think that paper and gas are their only expenses) and the $150 fee is the SA’s profit. The SA is paid, in most cases, Net 15.
(#2) Same TC now calls a SS and agrees to pay them $150 for the same signing. TC also calls SS when docs are ready. Again, TC = 2 calls & 2 emails.
The SS now calls the SA directly and offers them $85 for the signing. The SA agrees to the fee (low ball offers are another discussion). SS sends confirmation email; docs ready email and calls SA as well. SS =2 phone calls & 2 emails.
The SA’s >TRUE< overhead & expenses are the same as in (#1) above. The SA is paid Net 30 (or Net 45 – 60).
--------------------
In the examples above the TC has paid the same amount and made the same number of calls & emails. The difference is that now the SA has given up $65 of his profit to the SS for them to make 2 calls and send 2 emails as well as having to wait at least twice as long, if not 4 times as long, for payment for the same job.
Even if the SS offered $100 or $125 the original amount of $150 is still being paid out by the TC and the SA is not receiving the $150 for the same job. Low ball offers is just another way of saying “I want more of your money (profit)” IMO
The cut into the SA’s profits has increased even more now that some established SS companies are hiring notaries claiming to be SS companies to find SA’s for signings. I’ve had 5 calls from these double dipping bottom feeders this month alone with request from some of my current SS clients.
SS companies make a few calls and send a few emails, while the NSA, who used to work directly for the TC and is the one person that most of the borrowers will ever see for any length of time during the entire loan process, is constantly being told they must accept lower and lower fees. The workload has increased along the way as well (edocs verses overnight docs). And this occurs so that a SS (and lately even NSA's pretending to be a SS) can take more and more money from the person who is actually performing the job of the Signing Agent.
In what other industry has one of the lowest persons in the sales chain (ex: SA) been told they now have to pay someone else (ex: SS ) to intercept the sales orders (signing request) that otherwise would be received by them directly? Overall, this is an insane way to do business! And the low ball SS companies are driving home that point every day, IMO.
The fact remains that we, as NSA’s, ARE paying someone to hijack our own customers, add time to the overall process, add unnecessary layers of people to the process, in some cases even treat us like children (hand holding), and hold our money until they see fit to pay us, instead of what used to be Net 15 or max Net 30 from the TC.
I am tired of receiving calls from other notaries (um, excuse me, I mean newly created SS co.) that think I am one that would accept these low ball offers so they can sit back and take a cut of my profit for hijacking my sales calls. They have realized that the NSA profession, overall, has been willing to not only allow the introduction of a new “middle-man” to the process, but has also been brainwashed into thinking that is the way business is supposed to be! No other industry or business model I know of finds this acceptable or even a sustainable way to conduct business (to create new “middle-men” positions out of thin air). The only one in this arrangement that this is profitable for is the SS.
Let’s see; If 2-5 min on the phone with NSA, maybe another 2-5 minutes to send emails throughout the entire process (cc and bcc features may even shorten the time), and if they pay their schedulers $10/hr, their actual payroll costs for that one order might be around $3, OR LESS, in actual time spent by the scheduler!
When I am hired by a TC, I don't tell them, "Just for the hell of it, I'm going to pay you $25-$100 just for calling me. Just take it off the top of what you have just agreed to pay me." The end result is the same when we accept requests from SS companies, or worse a TC/SS companies (basically the same company & people just moved over one chair); the money received is less than what the TC is offering.
So who is > really < paying the SS companies?
Agree? Disagree? Any thoughts? All are welcomed. 
| Reply by redd on 1/20/11 3:31pm
Msg #369401
I agree with you...but what do we do about it?? I also feel it's crazy that we have no control over setting up the TIME of closing with the borrower. In rural areas where the number of notaries is very low, being anal about an exact time is really ridiculous. But yes, everything you outline here has been running through my mind over the last year and even more so when the low-ball calls increased.
| Reply by Moneyman/TX on 1/20/11 3:43pm
Msg #369409
One thing I intend to do is market to more TC. I also am no longer willing to "discount" my fees for SS companies that hire another SS to place the signing. Let them get stuck with it an unable to assign it without doing so for free and the market should dry up.
Sticking to your fees is the first start, IMO. Especially if there are not many SA in your area. $125-$150 is a min for a local, small package for me.
As for the time thing; For the most part, as long as the docs arrive prior to my 2 hr cutoff time, all is good. Also, I call the borrowers and if necessary, almost always the time can be changed and a new time agreed to. Of course this happens mostly due to late docs. For me, late docs means that the signing goes to the back of the line if I don't cancel it due to other appointments. I refuse to be late to another appointment that had their act together for one a company that did not.
| Reply by Bob_Chicago on 1/20/11 3:40pm
Msg #369407
Tony, I would, of course, prefer to be called directly by
TC ( or it's captive SS) as I usually am, and to recieve a larger signing fee. However, the independent SS do, IMO, perform a valuable service for the TC.
Your scenarios assume that the TC scheduler reaches a still active, available and competent
SA on their first call ( after getting the name, or course, off of the NOTROT list)
Unfortunately , this is frequently not the case. The first five SAs called may be out of the biz, busy, on vacation, car in shop , baby sitter quit, etc, etc.
Many TC have made the business decision to outsource this function to one or more SS, which has a list (in theory , at least) of qualified , active SAs in the area of the signing.
Also the TC utilizing a preferred SS, can send one check a month for all signings secured by that SS. The TC is relieved of the problem of receiving invloices, accounting, sending checks, keeping track of social security #s, 1099s and getting a bunch of
"Where is my check " calls.
A competent SS will also be able to assist the SA in securing and printing dox, advise the TC that the dox were signed and returned to the proper place. In short, I can see why some TC have elected to outsource this vital, but time consuming function.
| Reply by Moneyman/TX on 1/20/11 3:52pm
Msg #369413
Re: Tony, I would, of course, prefer to be called directly by
The scheduler at either the TC or SS may have to call several people, this is true. A call that is not answered and another one that is rejected are 1 minute or less phone calls. I still contend that the scheduler, themselves spend less than 15 minutes on each file on average. That includes the email time.
Their outsourcing should not lower our fees. The money the TC may save in the areas you mention, along with the interest they make by holding on to the money in their accounts, should be reduced by the cost of the SS that they have chosen. In other words, they should pay the SS whatever they have to for their services and include the pay for the SA without asking the SA to pay the SS out of their profits. As you described, the benefits are going to the TC and SS. Why should I be asked to pay for their benefits?
| Reply by Bob_Chicago on 1/20/11 4:25pm
Msg #369424
Not a perfect analogy, but my wife and I took an
early flight from ORD recently.
I could have called a cab directly, if knew a driver, but instead , I called our regualr cab
company, They had a clean cab in a driveway right on time with a competent driver.
I am sure that the driver had to pay over a substantial part of his fee to the cab company for their efforts. When we came back, I called the cab co from baggage claim, and a cab was in front of the gate in about 10 minutes. Other passengers stood in the cab line and ended up with whatever cab and driver that was next in line/
The SS system is just the way that the signing biz has evolved.
It has worked for me by enabling me to have made a very nice income for the past 12 years.
If you don't like the fee that you are offered or are able to negotiate, then turn it down.
GO BEARS
| Reply by F2F/FL on 1/20/11 5:00pm
Msg #369433
Re: Not a perfect analogy, but my wife and I took an
You know both of you gentlemen have made very good analogies here and I want to thank you for your time in explaining all the in's and out's of the game.
I'm new to the notary business and I am really learning a lot about this type of business between agents.
I really thought that everything would be alright until I had to have a notary public come to my home to have some papers signed from the (short sale) of my home. Anyway I quized her about could she maybe help or mentor me because at the time I was studying and testing to get my commission and she just kinda of blew me off. Then we had to have her come to our home again for more paperwork to be signed and she asked me if I had completed my training and gotten my commission and stamp, and I thought WOW she may be interested in giving me a little help or advise. I wasn't expecting her to give me any of her jobs or any of that. I just wanted to go along on a few signing with her (if it was OK with the client of course) and her response was that since we live in the same city that she personnally felt that I was direct competition and that since she has a SS then she "might" call me if needed. I am kinda curious just how much she pays as a service, when I already know how much we paid her twice.
OK just another avenue in the delema of SS verses SA.
| Reply by CopperheadVA on 1/20/11 5:17pm
Msg #369437
Re: Not a perfect analogy, but my wife and I took an
Well to be honest with you, she's right that you are her competition. It would not make sense for her to train you because you will be taking some of her business away. I'm sure it's nothing personal - just business.
You said she has a SS? I am very wary of taking jobs from notaries that farm out jobs to others. Very few are really set up as a real honest to goodness SS business - most just accept every call they receive and farm out the jobs they can't get to, and take a cut of the fee. And the fee they offer is usually very low. And then payment issues often follow...
| Reply by F2F/FL on 1/20/11 5:41pm
Msg #369447
Re: You nailed it
Thanks CopperheadVA. You must have read my mind on your thoughts about her having a signing service. I felt that way when she said what she did.
Yes I know she was being honest with me, and yes she is my competition also, and I told her that how she feels will just make me work even harder, and I'm not too sure she was expecting my comeback. She works hard and is very good at what she does, but I guess you just had to be there to feel the stab.
Anyway you will find her at the top of most paid lists of signing agents and SS online but I will not be saying who0 it is.
| Reply by Moneyman/TX on 1/21/11 2:04pm
Msg #369566
Re: Not a perfect analogy, but my wife and I took an
When it comes to notaries acting as SS companies (i.e. farming out work from other SS companies) you said it.
| Reply by Accountable Agents, LLC on 1/20/11 6:07pm
Msg #369454
Re: Tony, I would, of course, prefer to be called directly by
Bob I couldn't have said it better myself. SS's (good one's at least) handle all that stuff AND MORE for the title companies. Including post close issues (missed signatures, docs, extra docs, etc). TCs, espcially high volume TCs, dont have the time or the manpower to handle all of those items and really don't want to. It's easier to call/email the same SS to cover all their deals including a lot of last minute deals and not have to worry about it. It's like an extension of their own company. They find a company they trust and run with it.
Another example of work we do that the closer's dont see on their end are the emails with the docs. On one closing we can receive up to 7 different emails with different docs (title, loan, broker, and misc other docs that just filter in). We take all of those and bundle them into one nice PDF file. There is a lot of work on our end and most of our closers love us.
People who say SS's are just here to eat into our profits don't know this business at all. It's all about marketing yourself. Would you rather have 2 deals a month at $150 or 10 deals a month at $100??? you tell me what the smarter choice is. The chance of a random TC in PA finding lil' ol' you in CA or wherever is slim to none. So it's good to get into both. Working for SS's and TCs direclty. Yes utimately we too are in it for a profit but I didn't build my business to be unfair to closers and steal their money. I have been and still am a great closer and understand what it is like. My regular closer's know what it is like to get high volume at a lower fee and they couldnt be more greatful. As I said in another post, it's a shame that there are SS's out there that try to get you to work for $50 and give us good SS's bad name. Disgusting!
| Reply by James Dawson on 1/20/11 6:20pm
Msg #369456
Re: Tony, I would, of course, prefer to be called directly by
>>>>>>They find a company they trust and run with it. <<<<<<<<<<
I would think a notary would be easier to find. I certainly doubt TC have need to "trust" anybody.
This is NOT MEANT FOR YOU but there are good/trustworthy notaries out there that you can also find and run with them.
While I understand you cannot set a "standard" fee because expenses vary nationwide, standard fees are set to establish profit margins for yours truly.
| Reply by Accountable Agents, LLC on 1/20/11 7:29pm
Msg #369480
Re: Tony, I would, of course, prefer to be called directly by
Oh I agree with you in that aspect too. That is greed. It's just like every other industry. you have the good, the bad and the ugly. What makes this industry so great is that you have the option of working when you want and for whom you want. I understand that the notary is pretty much the most important part. In most cases its the only person the borrower meets and they essentially seal the deal and ALL companies try to get them as low as possible. Its a disgrace.
You'll always have middle men. Greed comes in all shapes. For instance, closers ask for more money when they spend a longer time than usually in a closing and the docs are large and excessive. However, do the TCs and SS's get a discount for docs that are 60 pages and only takes you a half hour to close? No. b/c that's your fee. Sometimes it works in your benefit and sometimes theirs. At $150 for that type of work you're getting paid more than a doctor. Everyone chooses this field.
| Reply by CopperheadVA on 1/21/11 8:41am
Msg #369514
Re: Tony, I would, of course, prefer to be called directly by
<< TCs, espcially high volume TCs, dont have the time or the manpower to handle all of those items and really don't want to. It's easier to call/email the same SS to cover all their deals including a lot of last minute deals and not have to worry about it. It's like an extension of their own company. They find a company they trust and run with it. >>
Yes, I can see why a SS would be convenient for a TC to use and would be a benefit for a busy title office. However, they must be willing to pay for that service or that convenience. They should be willing to pay the SS $175 - $200 so the SS can in turn pay the notary $125 - $150. The way things are now, TC wants to pay SS the same rate that notaries get directly, thus the notary in turn is getting a lower fee for these jobs and is essentially the one paying for the TC's "convenience".
Can you find notaries that are willing to do the job for $65, $75, $85 or $90? Yes you can, but you are taking a risk every time with getting some dingbat notary that doesn't do the job properly (like the ones that need the long list of instructions, such as don't wear flip flops and cut-off jeans to the closing). The quality notaries will cost more than that.
| Reply by Moneyman/TX on 1/21/11 2:11pm
Msg #369568
100% agree with you!
That is what I was saying and I don't think the SS companies get. The person (or company) that receives the benefits should be the one paying for them, not the person actually doing the work. If they understood that and charged the TC properly then paid the SA as they should, there would not be an issue with them being the middle-man.
| Reply by Moneyman/TX on 1/21/11 2:00pm
Msg #369565
Re: Accountable Agents, LLC - You guarantee 10/month?
"People who say SS's are just here to eat into our profits don't know this business at all. It's all about marketing yourself. Would you rather have 2 deals a month at $150 or 10 deals a month at $100???"
The fact is that YES, SS companies DO eat into our profits. The false analogy of "2 deals...or 10" is just that ... FALSE. Neither you or any other SS is willing to guarantee SA's 10 deals a month paying them $1000 regardless of closing 2 or 10 are you??? Until you are willing to do that then I'll stick to my fee schedule and do what I have been doing for several years now; Earn more money (and profit) with less work. I could lower my fees and get an extra 6-8 loans per month (based upon my turn down rate) would would cost me an extra $250+ a month to do. Let's see, spend more time and money to make less? I don't think so.
The fact is that SS companies may be providing a benefit to the TC BUT they ARE charging US for the benefits that they offer to the TC. If SS companies would price their services properly they would be willing and able to pay us the proper fees for the services that we provide. Instead, SS companies offer us reduced fees in order to pay for the services provided to the TC. To think otherwise shows just someone that does not know this business at all.
As I stated in the OP, this isn't about "good" SS v. "bad" SS companies. I will agree with you that the bad ones do make it harder on the good ones. I have always said that.
| Reply by Moneyman/TX on 1/27/11 2:34am
Msg #370224
What? No response from the SS company above? Must be true. n/m
| Reply by CopperheadVA on 1/20/11 4:56pm
Msg #369431
The problem is exacerbated by the fact that SS are bidding their jobs to TC at the same rate that I charge! So when SS calls me with a lower rate, I counter with my rate, and they tell me that's what they are getting paid by TC. My minimum fee is $125 and this is what SS are telling me that they are getting paid from TC.
I have TC clients that pay me more than that directly, and call me first because they know the job will get done professionally and correctly. IMHO it's in the best interest of the TC's to get a small group of good notaries that they use consistently - this will produce the best results for the TC. Notary gets hired directly and is familiar with the docs since they are closing over and over for same TC.
| Reply by James Dawson on 1/20/11 6:11pm
Msg #369455
I agree with you totally. Then you find out that "this person" is an escrow officer for "that TC" and are in charge or have to ability to influence the outsourcing of the work.
so, HMMMM I'll have a friend or family member start a SS and refer the work to them. I have run across this twice now, it is not by accident that this happens, it's greed.
That's how deep this little SS industry can be. Nationwide.
| Reply by Accountable Agents, LLC on 1/20/11 7:28pm
Msg #369478
Oh I agree with you in that aspect too. That is greed. It's just like every other industry. you have the good, the bad and the ugly. What makes this industry so great is that you have the option of working when you want and for whom you want. I understand that the notary is pretty much the most important part. In most cases its the only person the borrower meets and they essentially seal the deal and ALL companies try to get them as low as possible. Its a disgrace.
You'll always have middle men. Greed comes in all shapes. For instance, closers ask for more money when they spend a longer time than usually in a closing and the docs are large and excessive. However, do the TCs and SS's get a discount for docs that are 60 pages and only takes you a half hour to close? No. b/c that's your fee. Sometimes it works in your benefit and sometimes theirs. At $150 for that type of work you're getting paid more than a doctor. Everyone chooses this field.
| Reply by Moneyman/TX on 1/21/11 2:22pm
Msg #369569
In a way SS companies do get a discount. When SS calls the SA for a loan mod (fewer pages) they use that as a reason to offer less. They also know that some TC will always have larger packages and the SS may require fax backs on certain packages, but they are unwilling to pay more for those services.
Also, as far as the "more than a doctor" comment, you are only looking at the time at the table, not prep time, doc print time, travel time, real overhead, etc. In reality it is far less than a doctor bills per hour. However, the $50-$100 per file that the SS company makes is much greater than what a doctor charges considering the actual time spent on each file.
My complaint is that SS companies do not price their services to the TC properly and ask us, NSA, to pay for their improperly pricing structure by reducing our fees.
| Reply by Les_CO on 1/22/11 2:35pm
Msg #369650
In my opinion a good SS is a benefit to us notary signing agents. They help us get work we in most cases would not get. These closings would most likely be done by local TCs. They also help the smaller TCs can’t afford to pay for full time schedulers, and all the related costs of getting/scheduling/paying NSAs, so they call a SS. The big (not to be confused with good) SS mostly have their own ‘in-house’ SS (like First American and FASS) The SSs do charge for their work, but let’s face it, it’s the borrower that pays.
We all know fees that TC and therefore SS are willing to pay have gone down from what they were. I don’t blame the SS’s; I blame the NNA and their ‘signing agent mills’ that have produced thousands of new “notary signing agents” many willing to work for virtually nothing.
The Signing Services are really NOT making money ‘off our backs’. They charge Title a fee to get a job done. We are a big part of that job, and we should charge the SS that hires us accordingly. If we don’t shame on us!
Many whine about the SS taking money out of our pockets. Really? NO SS has ever taken any money out of my pocket; some have put quite a bit IN my pocket. I will say that a couple of Title Companies have not paid me, but that’s another matter. JMO
| Reply by Moneyman/TX on 1/25/11 8:59pm
Msg #370090
Les, I will agree with you that the NNA is to blame for the lowering of our fees overall. As I stated in the OP, there are good SS and bad SS companies. My post was not about good v bad ones.
If the SS does not charge the TC for the benefits they, the TC, receive by charging them the same that I, or you charge, then they have to make a profit somewhere. That is what business is all about. The only place left for them to make their profit is to offer the NSA less than what they would be paid if the NSA and the TC were the only ones in the process. The SS companies are afraid of charging the TC properly, for fear that the TC will not send them business. To that, I say that those that do that are underselling their own services and the actual benefits the TC receives. That is a mistake on their part. My service and level of customer service is just as high regardless of who is hiring me. I turn down $90 and $75 offers all the time because I understand that what I bring to the table is worth the fees that I charge.
I, like you, do work for some really good SS companies that accept my fees and understand that by paying a professional fee they will receive a professional and professional service.
The reason I say that they are "creating" a middle-man position is because they are not charging the beneficiary of their services for their services; They are charging the NSA for the services they provide to others. Borrowers are still being charged the same regardless of me accepting a $50 fee or if I am paid $150 for the closing. In fact, as with everything else, the fees charged to borrowers have increased so the argument that it is the customer that pays in the end and that's why we should accept lower fees just doesn't hold any water, IMO.
The cry from some of the SS companies of "would you want 2 signings @ $150 or 10 @ $100" is crap. Unless that SS is willing to contract me, or anyone, and is willing to pay me the $1000 if I have 2 or 10 signings each month their question is meaningless. That is the same "I'll send you more business if you accept this low ball offer" line that you hear from some of them only to hear from that same SS 3 months later for the 2nd time that year.
Discounts are given to good customers that send me a certain amount of business each month. Those discounts are on the signings AFTER they reach the proper levels. So while some claim that they will send me 10 signings @ $XX they don't know that they will even receive 10 loans in my coverage area that month.
When a SS company does not charge the TC properly and look to NSA's to pay by offering lower fees, then yes, those SS companies are wanting to take money out of the NSA's pocket, IMO.
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