Posted by Isabel/CA on 1/12/11 4:54pm
Msg #368286

Your borrowers surprised by having to take an oath??

I come across this ALL the time, and was wondering if you guys do too. I'd say more than half the time, when I do a refi and have the borrowers take an oath, they say, "I've NEVER had to do that before. I've refinanced a few times and NEVER had to do that."

I always show them the jurat form where it says "subscribed and SWORN" and they've never given me a problem.

I'm just wondering....is it just that there are SOOO many untrained notaries here in CA, that they don't complete the oath or is it across the board all over??

Reply by James Dawson on 1/12/11 4:56pm
Msg #368287

Yes happen quite a lot with me also....even when attys are refi ng.

Reply by Alz on 1/12/11 5:40pm
Msg #368297

BOs will say, "The previous notary didn't have me do this". n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 1/12/11 4:57pm
Msg #368288

Yep...AND they raise their left hands....guess that pen

just weighs that right hand down too much for them..

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 1/12/11 5:18pm
Msg #368291

All the time... they think it's silly. n/m

Reply by CopperheadVA on 1/12/11 5:27pm
Msg #368293

Yes! n/m

Reply by Yoli/CA on 1/12/11 5:29pm
Msg #368294

Unfortunately, happens way too often. n/m

Reply by CopperheadVA on 1/12/11 5:37pm
Msg #368296

Re: Yes!

And I used to be very anal and did the oath for every jurat, upon signature. Now I just do it once at the beginning and let the signers know that it applies to all jurats within the package.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/12/11 7:36pm
Msg #368318

Re: Yes!

Can you give me an idea of what you say? It's never made sense to me to have someone swear to the truthfulness of a document they haven't seen yet - and occasionally have a problem with - but maybe I've just got my way stuck in my head. I typically do it once, but after we've gone over all the docs that require a jurat. Then I just complete the notarization and put them back where they were.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 1/13/11 5:51am
Msg #368351

Re: Yes!

I say, "For the documents that require an oath for the notarization: When you place your signature on the document, do you swear or affirm that the contents will be true to the best of your knowledge?" And then I wait for them to say yes. I do not require them to raise their right hand.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 1/13/11 2:32pm
Msg #368498

Thanks. Short and sweet, makes sense. I like it! n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 1/12/11 6:38pm
Msg #368310

It still feels a bit awkward to me, but I always do that when we get to the title docs which contain the affs. I've never had anyone make an issue of it.

Reply by kathy/ca on 1/12/11 6:49pm
Msg #368315

When I say I need to administer an oath, they look at me

like, "for real"?

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 1/12/11 8:40pm
Msg #368322

Re: When I say I need to administer an oath, they look at me

People giggle and look at me and say What? "I have never had a notary do that". I show them the document that says Sworn to and that stiffles the giggles. I say that I follow the rules to the letter and that this is what is required by the state of Ohio.

Reply by Roger_OH on 1/12/11 9:16pm
Msg #368325

Right, Claudine; severe penalties here...

in the Ohio statutes for not adminstering the oath/affirmation when required. $500 fine, 30 days in jail, and loss of commission.

Reply by Joan Bergstrom on 1/12/11 9:37pm
Msg #368330

Re: Right, Claudine; severe penalties here...

When I was a new notary in 2002 I would estimate that 90% of the CA Jurats were notarized without the verbal oath or affirmation given. Borrowers would look at me as though I was crazy when I told them to raise his/her right hand.....................etc.

It's much much better now but far from 100%.

By July of 2005 all CA notaries had to take either a 6 hr class or home study option(s) to receive their commission and my guess is that the problem with the Jurats was the main culprit.

Reply by kathy/ca on 1/12/11 9:44pm
Msg #368331

Roger, honestly, 30 days in jail????? n/m

Reply by Robert Williams on 1/13/11 4:23pm
Msg #368528

Re: Roger, honestly, 30 days in jail?????

There is a distinct difference between what the letter of the law says and what is actually interpreted and enforced. I haven't found a single record of an Ohio Notary going to jail for not administering an oath, but the law does say it's a "Possible" or "Maximum" penalty.

"PENALTIES
Whoever violates section 147.10 of the Revised Code shall be (A) fined not more than five hundred dollars.
Whoever violates section 147.14 of the Revised Code shall (B) be fined not more than one hundred dollars or imprisoned not more than thirty days, or both.
(R.C. 147.99)"

Reply by BBL on 1/12/11 10:29pm
Msg #368336

I get that all the time "I've never done that before" I tell them it is required for all statements that say SWORN & SUBCRIBE" to. Then they put their hands up.

Reply by Isabel/CA on 1/12/11 10:46pm
Msg #368339

Yup. I do the same. They usually look at me like I'm nuts, but once I point that out their funny grins disappear.

I had a friend of mine who refinanced last month tell me that her notary showed up in flip flops and jeans. No way did that notary administer an oath. When told her that her notary was breaking the law by not administering the oath, she was like "I should report her to my lender!"

I hate to "rat people out", but sometimes we need accountability.

Reply by HisHughness on 1/12/11 11:29pm
Msg #368340

It isn't an issue

I rarely have borrowers question the need for the oath, perhaps because I don't see the necessity for them to raise their hands. I think it is entirely adequate for them to swear to tell the truth, so after I record the ID information in the journal, I simply turn to the oath and read it. Since I don't give them an opportunity to object or even comment, I just almost never get either.

I realize that raising the right hand may add some formality and solemnity to the process, but can anyone point to something that requires the raised hand or that declares that it renders the oath more binding? I know of no such requirement in my state. So, if it's going to make the closing go both smoother and quicker, they can keep their hands in their pockets as far as I'm concerned.

Nor do I administer an oath for each jurat. That is bizarre. Even in a court proceeding, if you are called multiple times to testify, you only take an oath on the first appearance.

On an affiliated topic, the oath I use is:

Do you solemnly swear or affirm, upon pain of perjury, that:

You are ______________________________________________

That the signature you will place on these documents is your customary and usual signature;

That you are executing these documents voluntarily for the purposes and the considerations stated therein; and

That, with respect to any affidavits, the allegations therein are true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?

Reply by James Dawson on 1/13/11 1:06am
Msg #368347

Re: It isn't an issue

>>>> That, with respect to any affidavits, the allegations therein are true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief? <<<<<

If you give the oath right after you fill in the ID info they haven't even seen the Docs yet, right?

Reply by HisHughness on 1/13/11 1:28am
Msg #368349

Re: It isn't an issue

Certainly. And if the allegations in the affidavit aren't true, they don't sign it.

Your point?

Reply by MW/VA on 1/13/11 7:54am
Msg #368358

That's pretty cool, Hugh. Thanks. n/m

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 1/13/11 6:05am
Msg #368354

I've never seen another Fla. notary administer an oath

I always do. And one for each document. I have never had anyone laugh or refuse or anything like that. But I do not require a raised right hand. Even many judges don't require a raised right hand, and there is no law, at least in Florida, which requires it.

Reply by Dave_CA on 1/13/11 10:11am
Msg #368400

Re: I've never seen another Fla. notary administer an oath

I get this often as well and while there is not a requirement in CA for a raised hand I always do. I feel that it will help them remember that they did take an oath and it certainly doesn't take any longer.
I also just administer the oath once and say something like "if you agree to be under oath for all the documents that require we won't have to raise our hands each time." That usually gets a smile.

Reply by NMS/FL on 1/13/11 1:59pm
Msg #368495

Re: I've never seen another Fla. notary administer an oath

I also see very few notaries in FL administer oaths OR acknowledgments. I've heard lots of signers tell me that they were never asked to give an oath or acknowledge that they were signing of their own free will. I just tell them that we notarize according to the statutes and laws of the state. Since most notarizations end up in file cabinets in business offices, never to see the light of day again, these issues with invalid notarizations, etc are never brought to light. I've had to correct entire packages of attested photocopies for immigration attorney's because the original notary didn't even bother to put the required notarial certificate wording on the copy (which they didn't make themselves or supervise anyhow). Grrrrr...and life goes on.

Reply by MW/VA on 1/13/11 10:17am
Msg #368406

I have to admit that I didn't understand the need for an oath before participating in these forums. My own experience with refi's is that no one every used an oath. I can also attest that my local pack & ship stores don't know the difference between ack & jurat & do not administer oaths.